Discussion - The Classification of Tropheus Genus Species

[myjohnson]

Dude I dont know who the hell your listening too, but I have been telling you for months...Poli and Annectens are two totally different fish.

I know, I know....we been back and forth on this issue. I read everything I can on this, but from my understanding the majority of people are writing that these fishes are all annectens and only a small minority are saying the opposite. There was a debate about who found these fishes first and in turn has the right to name them. I think the majority would say they are all annectens and the difference is in the collection point.

Not trying to be buggin but can you link me to a site or get me a copy of an article that says 100% that they are two different sp.

Annectens are on the west side of the lake, and one location on the east side. Poli only exits at Bulu Point

I agree, but that's a collection point distinction and not a sp. distinction. Both fishes look to much a like to be in a different sp. group. But still have their differences as evidence in their respective collection points.

The Scientific community recognizes only 6 types of Tropheus that have been classified distinctly different from one another.

Duboisi, Moorii, Kasabae, Poli, Annectens, and Brichardi

Even this is debated b/c Ikola and mpimbwe are separated from sp. black and brichardi, respectively. However, I do have to agree that the majority of people would not classify Ikola and mpimbwe separately and only a minority would classify them as the former.

mj

[geoff_tropheus]

Thai there is no such thing as sp.red, sp.black, ikola, or mpimbwe as recognized Tropheus species

These are ONLY Konnings designations, they have not been assigned or proven by the scientific community. It just what Konnings writes as what he see's as groupings.
Konnings has only grouped them together he has not gone formal with this, even though I would think they would be down the road.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropheus

^ Froese, R. and D. Pauly. Editors.. "Genus Tropheus". FishBase. http://www.fishbase.org/Eschmeyer/Ge...fm?ID=Tropheus. Retrieved 2007-02-26.

[geoff_tropheus]

Not to get too much off topic, but there is a serious issue when trying to classify tropheus into different species, because majority of the west coast is not well expolored.

On page 123 of Tanganyikan Cichlids written by Ad Konnings he specifically says...

"Three species of Tropheus are met in this biotope: T.brichardi, T.polli, and T.annectens..."

When you come over, I can show you some 10 books I got in German and English

[myjohnson]

yeah, sorry for hijacking your thread. Just some last comments and I'll just wait until I see you and we can talk more or I'll just PM you.

First, Daniel Pauly, the one that co-wrote that article on Wikipedia, is a marine biologist and super smart dude that got his PhD over here in the States I think. I have ran cross his name before. However, I don't think he is as authoritative as some others that have spent more time on the lake and got the educational background (i.e. genetics) to back it up.

Second, I personally think the respect that Konings has is deserving. He is not the rift lake god like most people want to believe but he knows his stuff. He also has a PhD and have done more hands on studying in lake tang than any other one person. For lack of better authority I would have to say Konings is the most authoritative.

Here is the problem, D. Pauly is saying that there are only 6 (Duboisi, Moorii, Kasabae, Poli, Annectens, and Brichardi). However, the additional sp.red, sp.black, ikola, and mpimbwe were added by Konings.

Additionally, you wrote that in Tanganyikan Cichlids Ad Konnings wrote:
"Three species of Tropheus are met in this biotope: T.brichardi, T.polli, and T.annectens..."

That's the problem, among others in this game we call "Name that Tropheus," Using partial authority (like Koning saying there are polli and annectens) and dismissing the other information from the same authority (like Konings saying there are sp.red, sp.black, ikola, and mpimbwe).

p.s. Not trying to say I'm some expert or anything. Just trying to figure out what to call my dang fish!

[geoff_tropheus]

Thai,

Konnings is a lake expert. He can identify and call them whatever he wants just like Schupke calls them "lineages" Until they take their findings to the scientific community and make formal classifications, that is all they are...a name.

The only 6 fully recognized, fully described species with full taxonomy are the 6 described in 5 different authors including Konnings are the Kasabae, Moorii, Brichardi, Duboisi, Annectens, and Polli.

I dont think there is any game of "name that Tropheus" unless you know more than the people who have gone to the lake and performned the required research and took the findings to the community and had those findings published in books and journals.

wikipedia is not a reliable source for anyting really, you wanted something in a link. That is something I could provide to you in a Link format. Those 6 species are fully detailed by Schupke, Konnings, Hans-Joachim Herrmann, and Schneidewind. It is not the works of Daniel Pauly, it is the collective of all these scientists. That wikipedia article is simply a reference someone wrote so they could write that where D.Pauly was the editor of the source and nothing more.

If you want the real deal, get the books. Read them all, get the journals and read them. Dont rely on "so-called" internet experts who know how to google something.

[myjohnson]

I have to agree with you 100% on the internet issue. Generally information on tropheus is decent, but if anyone is trying to fine the really detailed stuff then the internet is just not the place.

Check this link out, I've had it for a while. It's a short and decently interesting read.

http://www.mchportal.com/fishkeeping-mainmenu-60/stock-the-inhabitants-mainmenu-79/stocking/130-stocking/301-classification-of-tropheus.html

Never seen the author's name before but some info is good and some not so good.

"Few years ago there were only four species of Tropheus genus officially recognized by the scientists:

• Tropheus annectens
• Tropheus brichardi
• Tropheus duboisi
• Tropheus moori"

"From Tropheus moori were “born” Tropheus sp. Black, Tropheus sp. Red and Tropheus sp. Ikola, while Tropheus brichardi gave birth to Tropheus sp. Mpimbwe. There are some arguments about whether sp. Ikola should be separate from sp. Black and if sp. Mpimbwe is needed at all but in order keep things as simple as possible I will not discuss these arguments here. Some scientists insist on placing one more moori - variant polli) in a species of it’s own but I will skip this for now because there the information available is not sufficient to justify this variant becoming a separate species. For the moment we can stick to 8 species:

• Tropheus annectens
• Tropheus brichardi
• Tropheus duboisi
• Tropheus moori
• Tropheus sp. Black
• Tropheus sp. Red
• Tropheus sp. Ikola
• Tropheus sp. Mpimbwe

Probably you’ve noticed the abbreviation sp. in front of the names of the four new species. It’s presence there is quite simple to explain – it comes from species and means that the name of the species is not yet officially acknowledged by the scientists. While they argue about this we can quietly use Tropheus sp. Black and all the others."


I don't think the person that wrote this got the correct info on classification, but I did learn that when the term "sp." is used then it means the classification is not finalized.


Do you know who (or which group of people) have the rights to finalizing the name of a fishes?


p.s. you got to loan me them books dude!

[geoff_tropheus]

I personally believe that sp.black, sp.red, sp.mpimbwe, and sp.ikola will soon be added to those lists, and Annectens and Polli combined.

The Kasabae is for the rainbow types, and moorii is for those that are like Limespot Kapampa, Hind B , etc... that are moorii, but not rainbow.

[geoff_tropheus]

I'd say the dates of these classifications were more than just a "few" years ago.

Tropheus annectens Boulenger, 1900
Tropheus brichardi Nelissen & Thys van den Audenaerde, 1975
Tropheus duboisi Marlier, 1959
Tropheus moorii Boulenger, 1898
Tropheus kasabae Nelissen, 1977
Tropheus polli Axelrod, 1977

[myjohnson]

yeah, thanks for making this it's own thread. We were really getting off topic there.

Can you, or anyone, check the aqualog. My friend wrote to me and said that, "T. Annectens the iris ring in adults is allways black or grey, while in the T. Polli it is allways bright blue."

I thought I saw the iris ring of Jim's annectens as being blue like my pollies but I might be mistaken.

What color iris does your annectens have Geoff?

[geoff_tropheus]

The Iris is bright Blue on my Annectens Kekese.

Dude you don't own the Aqualog? Geez.. you just lost cool points there man..

The Aqualog says...

Tropheus Polli Population 4.1 "The Iris is completley light blue apart from a darker spot in its upper part."

[geoff_tropheus]

You need to check you friend too, because the Aqualog says..

Tropheus sp.Keyso population 4.3, and Tropheus sp.Kavalla Kongole population 4.4 are the fish believed to be the possible fish that Boulenger classified as Annectens.

The Aqualog states about the iris..."The Iris is Dark with a blue sheen....the Iris is mainly light blue with a small red area on the upper edge of the eye."

[myjohnson]

Dude you don't own the Aqualog? Geez.. you just lost cool points there man..

lol, I'm not cool at all so there are no points to take away.

[myjohnson]

You need to check you friend too, because the Aqualog says..

I did! I knew he was full of it cause 99% of pictures that I see of annectens they have blue eyes.

Tropheus sp.Keyso population 4.3, and Tropheus sp.Kavalla Kongole population 4.4 are the fish believed to be the possible fish that Boulenger classified as Annectens.

The Aqualog states about the iris..."The Iris is Dark with a blue sheen....the Iris is mainly light blue with a small red area on the upper edge of the eye."

Thanks for the info.

[myjohnson]

I personally believe that sp.black, sp.red, sp.mpimbwe, and sp.ikola will soon be added to those lists, and Annectens and Polli combined.

I agree that Annectens and polli should be combined. They come from the same lineage (4) and I still don't know exactly why they are classified as two different species. Internet sources have written conflicting reasons. I still got some more reading on this book to do and hopefully something more authoritative turns up.

I want to type out the description of the polli variant as a number of people have PM me on this issue.

The polli that I have are population 4.1 in the book.

"Coloration: The base coloration consists of a light grey, which can become darker depending on mood. Breast, belly, ventrals, anal, and the tips of the caudal may have a more or less yellow cast. In some individuals the anal maybe a brighter yellow. Only dominant males individuals lose their stripes virtually completely. In general, however, the stripes are less pronounced in males than in females and juveniles, whose banding is very contrast-rich. Dorsal, pectorals, and caudal are usually the same colour as the body. The caudal and anal may sometimes have a faint red streaks and dots. The iris is completely light blue completely light apart from a darker spot in its upper part." by Peter Schupke.

[gotticgs]

just call Konnings!