F0 and F1

[NDsuperduty]

when it comes to petros and trophs, I am curious what yalls opinion is on getting F0 or F1?  What i mean is, do you think it really matters with these fish since even the F1's are somewhat rare compared to alot of other african fish.

For those that have a breeding pair of F1's(the fry are F2), have you found it hard to sell the fry?

[Cesar]

Re: F0 and F1

Iam not the one to ask, just a quick question, what size tank are you putting all these guys in,different tanks for fronts and or trophs and or petros?

[NDsuperduty]

Re: F0 and F1

i dont have any of the fish, and at the moment I am not doing the import order.

[Delock]

Re: F0 and F1

Depend on the fish

[Jolley]

Re: F0 and F1

In my opinion, the F1's are just as nice as the F0's. Yes, you will be able to sell the F2's to fellow hobbyists. You may or may not get as much as you would for an F1. That will be entirely up to each transaction. Dont let a simple classification such as F1 or F2 keep you from purchasing some nice fish such as tropheus and petros. Again, just my 2 cents. :)

[eklikewhoa]

Re: F0 and F1

The looks are the same and sometimes better with F1 but the problem you run into the way I see it is that with the continuing generations you get more and more inbred. Since tropheus are a bit more problematic with dealing with each other then other fish it makes it a bit harder to add to gene diversity or to replace males with other genes etc.

If you think you are gonna get rich selling fry.....I have some good swamp land for sale  :wink:

[NDsuperduty]

Re: F0 and F1

no, definately not.  The only reason I would want to breed any fish whether tropheous or yellow labs would simply be to help fund my hobby.  Whether I got $50 a year or $5000 from breeding a fish, it would be simply to reinvest into the hobby.  Plus I think it would be fun, kind of like an accomplishment.

[bethesdaboy]

Re: F0 and F1

In terms of real genetics the nomenclature is completely off.
Wild is wild and the rest is another story.

[NDsuperduty]

Re: F0 and F1

In terms of real genetics the nomenclature is completely off.
Wild is wild and the rest is another story.

I dont see how they could be that different.  Can you please explain in depth?

[Jolley]

Re: F0 and F1

In terms of real genetics the nomenclature is completely off.
Wild is wild and the rest is another story.

I dont see how they could be that different.  Can you please explain in depth?

They aren't.

[Jolley]

Re: F0 and F1

I'll add an example. Just look at the F1 pineaples that I sold Donald (ddaquaria). They look just as good as their wild caught parents if not better. He has posted pictures of them on this site.

[bethesdaboy]

Re: F0 and F1

In depth? No, but.... F1 is terminology for cross breeding.
So unless you are performing hybrid crosses the terminology is wrong.
Offspring are just that, offspring.

[NDsuperduty]

Re: F0 and F1

In depth? No, but.... F1 is terminology for cross breeding.
So unless you are performing hybrid crosses the terminology is wrong.
Offspring are just that, offspring.

Maybe I was using the wrong termonology then.  I was trying to compare WC to fry of WC born in captivity.  I was always told F1 was the fry of WC fish that are now in captivity.

[Jolley]

Re: F0 and F1

I'm trying not to go down a path that Geoff and I talk about a lot. It's in regards to wild caught fish collected and stored in vats. They then breed and the fry are sold as wild caught because they never left Africa.

I always thought 1X0=0. Too bad the classification doesn't work the same.  :?

I've given my opinion. I have nothing else to say on this matter. :)

[geoff_tropheus]

Re: F0 and F1

In my experience of keeping Tropheus for 10 years this is what I have learned.

F0 is wildcaught.  F1 is first generation from wild caught, F2 is 2nd generation from F1 adults, and so forth.  99% of the people I know after F2 just call them tankraised.

Tropheus come in about 4 different generations.  Wildcaught, Lake side Pond Raised, Floridia Pondraised, tank raised, and the F# generations.

Tropheus degenerate very quickly as inbreeding occurs.  It is very important to properly maintain bloodlines.

When you buy F1 fish you are getting genetic material from 1-2 males, and and possibly a mix of 4-6 females from one colony in an aquarium.  Wild fish may have completely differnt males and completely different females for every fish.

Typically, for best color, I have found that F1 to be some of the best, but...it depends on how they were reared and raised. What size tank you put them in, what foods you feed them when they were young and developing, etc...

When it comes to Tropheus it is all about food and water quality.  The best you can give them, is sometimes not enough.

That is why the attention you give them is so important.  That is why Burundi Pondraised are 300Times better than Floridia pond raised, because of bloodline attention and water quality.  There is no substition for fresh lake water at the right mix, pH, and minerals etc..plus natural foods.

So, what does all this mean...

Always maintain your bloodline mix.  When buying F1 try to get atleast 2 sources for the fish.  When getting F2 try to get 3 or 4 sources otherwise, your fry that you produce will be marginal at best in full size potential and color.  

When housing tropheus stick to the recomendations for tanksize, filtration, and foods.  Whenever your operatiting outside those recomendations your screwing up in my opinion.

The people in Burundi know Tropheus.  I just hate that they are now in new management and it's Pierre's children that now run the Burundi Farms and they are creating these Golden Kiriza's, Golden Bemba's, and other HYBRID LINEBREED tropheus that are just atroicties in my opinion.

So, nothing is safe in the Tropheus world now.

These fish deserve the best, because you paid the money to have them.  There is a reason why not everyone has them, and why most petstores dont have them or have them at $30 a fish for a 1-2" sized fish.  It takes a special person to provide the special attention that the fish need.

Ok..sorry for the speech...

F1 is just as good as long as you maintain the bloodline mix, and proper care.  F2 can be just as good as well aslong as you did what it takes to make them that way.

Because I breed Tropheus, that is why all my Colonies but the Runtunga and Duboisi are all 100% wildcaught.  My Ujiji Colony has one F1 that was spit from a wild import at Mike's (bethesdaboy) place, that I still count as wild because he came from Africa with the mom holding like that and he is 100% different blood than the fish from my colony 2 years ago.

MY Rutunga are a mix of wild, my own f1, my own f2, florida pondraisd, and burundi pondraised.  So, I got as much diversity as possible there.

My Duboisi is 50% wild, my own f1, my own f2, and then a number of single pickups at Alex's when he had oddball Karilaini Islands delivered or brought in.

Maintain the diveristy as best you can, and provide proper care.  The fish deserve that.

Sorry for all the ranting...excellent questions...

Geoff