PICS! 20 long, dwarf compressiceps

[eklikewhoa]

That would be to much risk of killing the fish. The toxin leached from wood and bleach in a system is just bad news.


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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=29.532047,-95.157784

This will help purge the toxins.

[Andrew_B]

And kill every bit of bacteria which would require another full cycle.

[barrettsline]

You don't need to worry about bacteria, there's another aquarium that is all ready running to provide water. Additionally, I have setup aquarium from nothing, everything brand new, introduced fish within a day and never lost a fish. The good thing is you can get the bacteria from the frontosa tank to kick off your 20 and get it going faster. time is just what you need to re-do tank from the damage of the wood.


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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=29.531968,-95.157745

[eklikewhoa]

But also have to assume the bad bacteria is over powering the good bacteria which is slowly, one by one taking victims so she must intervine and juice them all in hopes that all the bad consume first and die leaving only the good left to save the remainder of the bunch.

[barrettsline]

But also have to assume the bad bacteria is over powering the good bacteria which is slowly, one by one taking victims so she must intervine and juice them all in hopes that all the bad consume first and die leaving only the good left to save the remainder of the bunch.

+5 on that.

Think about this as well. All things in nature consume and absorb nutrients for food and energy. That's the same with the bacteria in this aquarium, along the way they have absorb or ingested whatever is in the aquarium. Do you really want that bacteria in a new startup?


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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=29.531975,-95.157875

[Complexity]

I don't think a total breakdown is necessary. Whatever killed the fish appeared to be able to transfer through the water. That means it's water soluble. If it's water soluble, then it is diluted each time a water change takes place. Eventually, it will be removed through filtration and water changes.

I would keep all fish in the tank as is. Moving them while already stressed will only stress them further, causing more deaths.

Instead, I'd add purigen and carbon to the filtration to remove toxins. I'd also do daily water changes. Put the extra effort in to ensure that the new water matches the tank conditions as much as possible regarding temp and pH.

If all the fish or a large number of the fish continue to die, then, yeah, I'd move them. However, right now the white clouds are eating which is a good sign. It appears they are trying to recover. This indicates that conditions in the tank are already improving. Otherwise, compromised fish would not improve, but continue to decline. Their improvement indicates that whatever was in the water has been diluted to the point that the white clouds can begin to recover so it must be diluted to a safer level already.

If you do decide to sterilize the tank, then all you have to do is remove the fish and pour a heavy concentration of bleach into the tank. Let it run through the filters and all for 24-48 hours. Then drain and refill, adding a heavy concentration of declorinator. Run that for 24 hours, drain and repeat. After that, everything should be sterilized and the chlorine should be removed. The tank can now be restarted with fresh bacteria from another tank.

[barrettsline]

theres only one way to solve this issue. B this is your aquarium and we have all given our thoughts and opinions to try to help. Somewhere in all or our ramblings is the answer.....I think. Were here for you and will help in anyway we can.


My last however, Bleach into aquarium = bad mojo.

[Complexity]

My last however, Bleach into aquarium = bad mojo.

How is bleaching the tank while put together any different than bleaching the tank while it's taken apart? it's the same stuff. The main difference is that running the bleach through the active aquarium ensures that it reaches all areas the water reaches, such as the hoses, etc. The dechlorinator removes the bleach without any ill effects just as it does when bleaching the parts separately.

Remember, bleach is just chlorine which is the same stuff in our tap water, only in a higher concentration. That's why a higher concentration of dechlorinator is needed. Once the chlorine is rendered harmless, you can proceed as normal.

I have bleached everything, including live plants. The only concern with bleach is the corrosion of metal, but most aquarium parts are plastic and glass. If your filters have metal, then you might want to clean them separately, but that's it. I'm not suggesting a 1:1 ratio of bleach water. A 1:20* ratio should be fine. You can even remove it after 1-3 hours if you want. Waiting 24 hours allows the bleach to break down on its own which is my preference (although I still use dechlorinator).

I've done this regularly to sterilize my quarantine tanks after treating for illness. Other than a few diseases, such as TB, it's an excellent way of ensuring you don't transfer the pathogens to your healthy tanks. Remove fish, add bleach, run, drain, rinse with water and heavy concentrations of dechlorinator at least 2 times (more if you can smell bleach, but I never do), and then clean out any crud left anywhere. Everything will be completely sterilized and ready to go once the bacteria cycle is reestablished.

If people feel safer taking things apart to bleach separately, then there's no harm in doing it. It's just more work which really isn't necessary.

* Edited to add: Thinking about it, I use a much lower ratio. I generally add about a cup of bleach to a 10 gallon tank. A 1:20 ratio would be about 1/2 gallon of bleach. So I'm clearly using much less than that.

[barrettsline]

The idea of running bleach through an assembled aquarium to me is terrible. As my statements have clearly said, selective bleaching is all that's needed. And why would you want to contaminate at extreme levels to only have turn around and completely have to flush with more declorinator and clean water than makes sense. Seems like a waste of materials and resources. And running it through my filter, would never happen. Then the risk of chlorine contamination to all my filter media. Corrosion to metal and moving parts. Then there's the time. In a half day turn around I can have my 72 gallon broken down completely cleaned with selective bleaching on only what needs to be, and back up and running with no issues of extreme contamination from chlorine that could harm my fish. Using clean tap water to heavily flush my substrate, filter, plants, and remove any and all contaminates with the safe levels of chlorine that are in tap water and can be more easily removed with chlorine remover to me just makes more sense and is safer and less detrimental.



Again opinions are opinions and to each his/her own. Believe i mean no offense, if it works for you cool. But i would never do it. selective bleaching and thorough rinsing with tap water is all that's needed in my opinion.


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[aquabee]

Wow! Lots of input from everyone. I really appreciate how helpful everyone has been. I can't do what I need to do for at least 7-10 days (except water changes) so that affords me some time to watch and wait. I just woke up and saw that the white clouds are swimming somewhat happily, and one even chased another one for a minute. This is as close to normal behavior as I've seen in a really long time. Chocolate white trim is still alive too.

Everything everyone has been saying about methods of bleaching sounds good to me. Since the fish seem to be recovering, I feel like I've gotten most of the contaminant out already (carbon, purigen, and water changes). I think I will end up bleaching the rocks only, and everything else including sand will be washed with very hot water. I'll replace all the filter media as well and supplement with Stability and seeded media, and if everyone continues to do well after that, then all's groovy. Again, I'll only do this if the fish continue to recover nicely. Anything less than that and I'm tearing down the tank. :furious:

[Complexity]

If the fish recover, I don't see any need for a breakdown. Their recover indicates that whatever was in the tank that caused the problems has been removed to a safe level.

barrettsline, I can appreciate that you wouldn't do what I would do. For me, tearing down a 72 gallon tank would not be feasible because I'm not physically able to do it by myself. So doing that would not only be much more time consuming, but require that I trouble others to help me. As it is, I can't even remove the rocks in my 90g tank to clean them which is why I'm having to use H2O2 in the tank to kill the BBA. Believe me, I'd much rather yank those rocks out, bleach the BBA, clean the crud that's under the rocks, and then put the rocks back in. But I can't. I physically can't.

However, the issue of whether there is any danger to putting bleach in a tank, while I hear your concerns, I know of many people who have done it and who recommend it. That's how I learned how to do it. Bleach is not a terrible product. It's like anything else, you simply need to know how to use it properly. This is why it's commonly used on aquariums with no ill effect.

It also depends on the person's goals. If all that's wanted is to clean a tank, then there's no need for bleach. Bleach is used only when a person wants to sterilize the tank (foregoing any algae issues). That's why I suggested it only as a last resort and only when sterilization is desired. To sterilize only part of the tank while not sterilizing other parts means that the pathogens are not killed. Any pathogens that remain may, if it's a bacteria or virus for example, repopulate the tank. The only way to be certain to completely kill it out is to do a full tank sterilization. Everything must be either sterilized or tossed.

It's okay that you're uncomfortable with doing it as you don't have to do it, but I hope you can understand that it's not some crazy idea I made up. Full tank sterilization with bleach is a common and safe practice.

[Complexity]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2020871

[Complexity]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?88205-replacing-substrate-and-sterilizing-aquarium&p=763476&viewfull=1#post763476

[barrettsline]

Complexity, I’m not arguing that the theory and concept are not sound. I also understand that not everyone is capable of performing a break down easily. Yes bleach is wonderful at all killing and removing contaminates. But I have to bring up that even in the links you posted, those who have done this, have done this with an empty aquarium or an aquarium with substrate only. They all mention removing everything. Placing everything in a bleach solution (including aquarium), draining, a heavy thorough rinsing, and wipe down, and repeat if the smell of bleach is present. Or if things are left in place, the same thing, with multiple rinses accompanied by large quantities of chlorine remover and air dry time. Both links said there are other and better ways of cleaning and removing contaminations. even just typing in "using bleach to clean an aquarium" the first results even state the is it safe but to remove everything, using a bleach solution comparable to yours, removing all bleach water from an aquarium and then filling, scrubbing, draining, then a wipe down with towels, and finally a sniff test. If there’s a hint of bleach those steps are to be repeated. Now can you modify those steps, I’m sure you can. But in the end everything I’ve read has either said to remove everything or to clean everything separately, if possible so that the repetition of filling, de-chlorinating, draining, and sniffing can be avoided. As far filters go, yes bleach can be used to clean them once all media has been removed, and any and all metal impeller shafts or metal moving parts have been removed. All hoses have to be rinsed and clean out with pipe cleaners, for the fact that yes the bleach has killed any algae inside of the hoses but it hasn’t scrapped it out so there is the possibility of contamination/ poisoning from the dead bleached material in the hose. I am skeptical on that, but again the theory of dead material contaminating is feasible.

For the sake of it I am going to do more research on it.

[Complexity]

I don't think doing research will resolve the issue either way because there are a lot of opinions on all sides, including people who recommend using rubbing alcohol which is something I don't like to use. I think it's more a matter of what you're comfortable with. Wiping down a tank is needless unless you're trying to avoid using dechlorinator, or at least large amounts of dechlorinator, which some people prefer. I don't mind using dechlorinator. I use it liberally all the time. I have huge bottles of the stuff. So it comes down to a matter of preference.

All I'm saying is there's no reason to fear bleach. As long as you use the old, original bleach and use any method to remove it, it's perfectly safe and an effective way to sterilize a tank and equipment. Whether the bleach is put in contact with the various pieces as a unit or separately makes no difference as it's the same basic process. Direct contact of bleach on the item, rinse with water to remove the bulk of the bleach, and then use a method to ensure that any residual traces of the bleach are rendered harmless. It honestly does not matter how you go about it. It's all the same thing either way.

As to whether crud left inside hoses is a problem, that's true regardless of whether you use bleach or not. For example, I'm using H2O2 to kill the algae in my 90g tank. I'm using a combination of direct contact (squirting it directly onto the most affected areas) and whole tank method (using large enough quantities to filter throughout my entire tank, canisters, hoses, and all). H2O2 will kill the algae in the hoses which means I'll have that dead crud inside the hoses. I can take everything apart and clean the hoses, which I've done before. Or I can allow it to disintegrate into the water over time and remove it through water changes. In my current efforts, I'm doing the later option. However, this means I also need to clean out my canisters more frequently than normal to physically remove the crud they're picking up since this process is putting more dead algae crud into the water column which then gets filtered out by the canisters. Since my current goal is to target the phosphate levels, I'm opting to clean the crud out rather than allowing it to be broken down by the bacteria. But, again, this is simply an option among many I could choose.

One of the most enjoyable aspects of this hobby is that there is no single "right" way to go about it. There are a myriad of options from which we can all choose, from what kind of tank and fish we keep to how we choose to maintain them, as well as how we handle problems that arise. While there are a few things that are universally understood to be bad choices, such as using detergents and soaps, most things are simply options with no single right or wrong answer. We select among those options what best suits our needs at the time and change as our knowledge, experience, comfort level, and as our situations change.

What's most important is to share the large variety of options available so we can each learn from each other which will ultimately allow us to do what we each feel works best for us in our specific situations. To hamper that sharing of information would limit us all. The more we know, the more choices from which we can choose, the more we can make choices that work for each of us. We not only don't have to do the same things, but the fact that there are so many options is what makes this hobby so enjoyable for such a wide variety of people.