Water management

[RichardChen]

I have a 125 gallon tank with 28 Malawi cichlids (and some babies from 3 different paris), 11 giant dinos, and one placo.  Currently running Eheim 2217 and an air pump.  I use white spectra stone for the substrate.  There are a few decoration rocks and a articificial plant.  Even thought I have Cichlid for a few years but I am still learning and asking questions.

My water parameters are pH: between 7.2 to 7.5, ammonia 0 ppm, nitrite 0 ppm, and nitrate either 40 or 80 ppm.  CaCO3 hardness is at 180.
I have been change partial water change 30% weekly but doesn't seems to drop the nitrate level.  Is my water bad, poor, so-so, all right for the Malawi cichlids?

The ex-pet store owner told me not to use buffer to modify water (there is only one lfs in a nearby town.)  His point was it causes spikes during water change.  He had sold his business to another person who has not much idea about Cichlid.  Besides a few Cichlid books I bought from Amazon, you are all real people I can ask questions.  Please help.  

[J-WS6]

Re: Water management

You don't need buffers. Those parameters are fine. If your concerned about your nitrate levels, try increasing the water change percentage to 50-60 percent. It also wouldn't hurt to add more filtration.

[Zulaab]

Re: Water management

Your problem is in the one filter you have running.. Yes its rated for up to a 159g tank but reality is that 159g with neon tetra's not cichlids.
You want to look into getting about a 5-7x time water turn over ie you need to look at getting enough pumps together to turn over 625g of water.  Right now your 2217 is turning about 265g of water.  You will need a second filter that will turn another about 400g of water per hour.  Recommendations would be another Eheim 2080 or 2260 filter, or a Fluval FX5 (this is overkill, but the cost is the same as the 2080 or 2260, but I will say that everyone who has one says they will never depart with it again as its the best filter they have ever added to their tank)  The Eheim 2080 and 2260 will put you at about 5x total turn over, the FX5 will put you at 8.5x turn over which means if you over stock your tank ever you will not have to worry about it.

Personally the FX5 is what I would add to your system.  Contact Fishland on Westheimer as I believe he has some good pricing on them.

[eklikewhoa]

Re: Water management

IMO your KH is a bit low....but not too bad I guess...the pH is kinda low too but if the fish have been in there and breeding they are probably accustomed to it.

As for your nitrate levels....are you gravel cleaning when doing water changes? Detritus will build up really fast with the lack of filtration/circulation in the tank so that needs to be removed before it is consumed which is what causes your high nitrate levels(which aren't really that high though you do give a broad range...test strips I presume?).

If you wanna try and raise your pH/KH some try using a bag of crushed coral in a media bag placed in your filter along with some epsom salt and/or baking soda. If you really wanna go for it there is a cichlid buffer recipe on cichlid-forum.com which would help you raise those numbers a bit.

[CichlidFan]

Re: Water management

First off, that's a nice clean looking tank.

Second you might want to do as Zulaab suggest and add a second filter, or maybe one or two of those powerheads you have been beating us up about for a while now.....

Third, stick some more/larger pieces of holey rock in that pretty tank, your ph will go up too.

Nice Tank RC

[RichardChen]

Re: Water management

I already ordered a powerhead just to try out.

Since there is no lfs here, I have to rely on internet purchasing.  On Doctors Foster and Smith website, the price of Eheim 2260 and Fluval FX5 are both $300.  FX5 mentioned media sold seperately.  2260 doesn't mention media at all but mentioned "needs no service and minimal maintenance."

Andy in Fishland and Charles in Fish Range II both told me to go with ugf.  Ugf is cheaper but when I read its disadvantage such as immobile cause trouble to medicate fish, weekly gravel wash, and hard to clean under the screen if stuff got below it. I worried to go with ugf.  If I will do 40% water change / gravel wash every two weeks and clean up filter once a month, which route will be better for cichlids and cheaper for me in a long run?  

I used to use chemical drops with test tubes to check water quality (pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.)  Recently I bought 5-in-1 test strips so I can know the hardness.  I think drop tests are more accurate.

Where can I buy crushed coral and epsom salt?  Will they shock the fish when I peform water change?

Holey rocks !!  I don't know any name of the kind of rocks I have.  One of the rock in the middle to the left of the artificial plant is brown.  I only washed it with tape water but didn't use Clorox.  Will it cause substrate around it to turn brown?  It is a dumb question but I have to ask.  Should I take the rock out and treat it with Clorox?  It is the home of babies.

Thank you for all your patient with me guys.  You are great.

[Zulaab]

Re: Water management

I believe the FX5 comes with the foam inserts when getting the filter but you will need buy separately the ceramics, carbon (if you want to filter with carbon) and polishing pads if you believe you water needs to be crystal clear.  I am sure that someone like Tim (Armthehomeless) or Geoff (Geoff_Tropheus) can chime in with full details and verification.  IF you wanted to add crushed coral in one of the media baskets put it into a fine net bag and add it into one of the media baskets too.

[Mzungu]

Re: Water management

Have you tested your tap water for nitrates? That could be part of the problem. But otherwise, I agree with what everyone else said. Try changing a bit more of the water every week, and be sure to vacuum the gravel.

Crushed coral you can find at any LFS, even the big chain stores. It's also called Aragonite. Epsom salt you can get at any grocery store/drug store. Just look for the aisle with Hydrogen Peroxide and first aid stuff, should be right there.

UGFs aren't bad, necessarily. But I would go with finding another canister if you have a choice. Especially since adding a UGF would mean that you have to move around all that gravel, which would be quite a chore. Look around here on HFB, check out MARSHreef.com, lots of people offer used canisters for sale pretty often, and you can get great deals (i.e. don't have to spend $300 + shipping  8)  ).

Pretty sure your rock is perfectly fine without any more work on your part. Especially if the babies like it! It shouldn't turn the gravel brown, or anything like that. If you really don't like the color, you could try to bleach it, but I don't see any reason besides that to do anything.

[RichardChen]

Re: Water management

I found a link which compared FX5 and Eheim.  

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7080

I got a lot of info out of that.  I don't have the kind of money for Eheim pro 3.  I am struggling which additional canister should I buy, FX5 or Eheim 2217?  I have a 2217.  I know how its performance and the long term cost.  For FX5, I am not sure if it is as quiet as Eheim?  I have no idea about its long term cost.

So say I have 2 canisters for the 125g tank.  Can I service one canister at a time and a month later service the other canister?  That means each canister is serviced once only every two months.  Will that be a problem?

Can I run the FX5 with pillow stuffing only for mechanical filteration purpose because I think it would be cheaper for me in a long run?  

By the way the Odyssea EX350 finally arrived today but only came with powerhead.  I called Aquatrader and they told me they are sorry and the rest of the parts including spongs will arrive in 2-3 days.  Is a sponge filter an efficient mechanical filter?

[algarciajr]

Re: Water management

I have a 150 gallon aquarium with cichlids and I use a Eheim 2217 and Eheim 2229 filter. I do 50% to 75% water changes about every three weeks. Also I always use a gravel vacumn whenever doing water changes. The nitrate levels are usually around 20 - 40 ppm. I use to service my filters at the same time, but I never do a water change and clean the filters on the same day. I have now started to do water changes and clean one of the filters then about two weeks later I clean the other filter.

[Zulaab]

Re: Water management

Unless your filter is clogged up, you should wait a minimum of 6 weeks between cleaning of your filters... reason is it takes 2 weeks alone for a clean filter to have enough bacteria growing in there to lower your nitrates.   I clean my canister and HOB alternating about once every 8-10 weeks.

[algarciajr]

Re: Water management

My post was not very clear, I clean my filters every 2 or 3 months but I do not clean them both at the same time anymore. I now wait about 2 weeks before I clean the other one.

[geoff_tropheus]

Re: Water management

Nitrate is high because there is a lot of ammonia to be processed.  Ammonia comes from uneaten food, and fish wastes.

I think 39 large fish (Malawai and Gaint Danio's) and a pleco is fully stocked or slightly over in a 125 gallon and I would not put more fish that is for sure. The tank probably does not have enough filtration with a lone 2217 for fish of this size.  The filtration is only going to make the water look more clean, it is not going to produce less Nitrate in the water.  Nitrate is the end product of the Ammonia cycle.  As long as you got Ammonia, your going to have Nitrate.

In order to lower you Nitrate in your water, you need to test your TAP source and find out if Nitrate is coming in from there.  Sometimes, Nitrate is present in your water supply.  You should also consider adding another filter, and use a Ammonia Remover, and a Nitrate Scavenger Resin.  I would get a canister filter (Eheim 2217, 2250, 2260, Fluval FX5, Rena Filstar XP3) and pack the canister with additional mechanical media, and add chemical media to remove Ammonia and Nitrate.

You also need to look at what can be done to make less ammonia in the tank.  Are you overfeeding, do you think you have too many fish, these things I would look at more closely and decide upon feeding less food, feeding a lower protein food, or a food that produces less waste, or taking out some of the larger fish and add a couple of scavengers to help clean up the uneaten food and fish wastes.

These is all just some ideas, your problem with High Nitrates is simple.  Alot of big fish make lots of waste.  Need to feed less, and the fish would benefit from more filtration.  In your second filter add the chemical media to help reduce Ammonnia and Nitrate and your problem will be solved.

With the Cichlids, you more than likely would not have much luck with live plants, but Live plants are also excellent Nitrate Reducers.

Take care,

Geoff

[sproett]

Re: Water management

Just to let you know my tap water has ammonia and nitrates in it.  I live in the Medical Center (inside loop 610).  I use Amquel Plus or Prime when I add water to my tank to detoxify it.  I filter my water before I drink it too.

[RichardChen]

Re: Water management

Geoff,

Wow, thank you for your fruiteful input.  I need you to help me to unerstand some of the product / terms you mentioned.
"Ammonia Remover, and a Nitrate Scavenger Resin" <- are these two seperate products or one?  Any name brand available?  Are they expensive to run continueously?

Eheim 2217 comes with mechanical media, bio media, and the carbon pad.  Is the carbon pad the chemical media you mentioned above to remove ammonia and nitrate or there are different chemical media out there to be used with canister filter?  I had experience the carbon juice got pulled into the tank and the tank color turned brownish (that's what I thought happened, what do you think?.)  If I can avoid carbon pad then I would.  But if it is the "chemical media" then I will have to use it.  If I have a carbon pad in the canister, I need to replace the carbon pad once a month right?

You mentioned "feeding a lower protein food, or a food that produces less waste", any name brand Cichlid food you would like to recommend?
For live plant, I read somewhere that Java moss would root on rocks.  Is Java moss suitable for low light environment?  My tank is by a bay windows with blind.  I can control the amount of sunlight comes in.  I don't normal turn on the fish tank light (so I don't see those tiny white particles  :(  .)  Any live plant would you recommend please.  

Thank you in advance.