Could I use my planted 29g as a sump to filter my new cichlid 90g?

[Complexity]

Its a good idea. The plants will act like a cleaner they will take out the chemicals in the water similar to any filter and they have the added benefit of adding O2.

That's what I was hoping. Plus, it gives me an added bonus of having an extra tank that I could use for growing out and hold plants for my 75g planted tank.

So I think I'm going to try to do this.

Now if you make it like a true wet/dry you will have the trickle effect

I'm hitting my lack of knowledge here. I don't know how wet/dry filters work so I can't follow you on this.

with will break the water surface and let CO2 escape and creates that noise.

But even with my lack of knowledge, I know I do not want either of these to occur.

So it seems that would mean I don't want to create a true wet/dry.

However, if you use two canister filters or pumps one to pump water from the 90G to the 29G and one for the return trip you can put them in the tank and it will not create the water surface disruption and will reduce the noise pollution of a true wet/dry.

I have two canister filters (although, I fully expected to buy larger ones than the XP2s for a 90g tank).

How do you rig this up? My initial thought would be to do this, but I can already see a major problem of possible probable overflowing issues. So I know this won't work. But can someone take this idea and show me how to change it so it will work?

90g intake ---> XP2(1) ---> output into 29g ////// 29g intake ---> XP2(2) ---> output into 90g

Clearly, if I use the two filters this way, I will run into overflow problems as soon as one of the two filters starts to clog. So this won't work. But I don't know what will.

[wesleydnunder]

I wouldn't use a pump in each tank. If the pump from the lower tank can't keep up with the volume from the other tank, or the return pump from the bottom quits, you've got a mess.

What you're describing doing is using the 29 as a veggie filter for the 90. I'm curious about this: if the 90 is going to have co2 injection and med high or high light, why would you want other plants than the ones in the 90 getting the nitrate? You're planning on ferts for the 90? Why strip nitrate out of the water with a veggie filter that will just have to be added back in to keep your macros balanced for the planted 90?

By itself, the 29 will only act as a veggie filter. It won't do an adequate job as a bio, chem or mech filter. Modified, the 29 can act as an adequate filter of all 3 types.

Mark

[Oscarcrazy]

Hob overflow from 90 to 29, xps from 29 to 90. This way you get the benifits of the refugium and benifits that the xps provide as well.

[Complexity]

I'm curious about this: if the 90 is going to have co2 injection and med high or high light, why would you want other plants than the ones in the 90 getting the nitrate? You're planning on ferts for the 90? Why strip nitrate out of the water with a veggie filter that will just have to be added back in to keep your macros balanced for the planted 90?

No, this isn't what I have in mind. Forget the idea of a veggie tank underneath. The 90g – by itself – will have no CO2, no plants, no ferts, no bright light. It will have sand, rocks and fish. That's it.

Where the whole bit about the high tech planted 29g comes into play is that I'm tearing this tank down to make room for the 90g tank. That means I have a 29g tank full of fish, plants, injected CO2, decent lighting, et. al. So what do I do with it?

Mix into the equation the issues of O2 and nitrates in the 90g all rock/sand/fish tank.

So I got to thinking... what if I put my high tech planted 29g tank under the 90g cichlid tank as a refugium or sump or something to that effect? The plants in the 29g would grow well because they get all the need, included the injected CO2 I already have on that tank. And the 90g could reap the benefits of the plants removing nitrate and adding O2 into the water. As far as dosing ferts, that's optional, but if I do, there's nothing to say I have to add nitrate ferts.

The question is whether this is a good idea, and if so, how do I do it? Does that help clarify?

Hob overflow from 90 to 29, xps from 29 to 90. This way you get the benifits of the refugium and benifits that the xps provide as well.

This is what I'm thinking of doing, but how do I do the actual plumbing between the two tanks and filters? (Do I have to use a HOB overflow?)

[Mzungu]

Mark - I don't think she's planning on planting the 90 at all - she's thinking of doing Tangs, if I remember correctly.

[Mzungu]

That's why I said just throw a PC over it and throw some hornwort in it - doing something high tech like that would most likely not be very efficient to use as a sump.

But, that's just how I feel about it. There are much more qualified people here that know much more about wet/dry filtration than I. :)

[Complexity]

Yes, that's correct. The 90g will be for Tangs.

[wesleydnunder]

OK I got it now.

If you keep co2 injection on the 29 you're for all intents and purposes injecting both tanks since they will have a common total water volume. In stead of trying to keep 30ppm co2 in 29 gal you're trying to keep 119 gallons injected to 30ppm...and 30ppm is just an example, I'm not sure what your co2 concentration in the 29 is.

I still would not pump water both directions in this loop...it's a recipe for wet floors. Let gravity work to drop the water down to the 29 either through a drilled overflow or a HOB overflow, then pump back up to the 90. If you use a canister to do this, simply put the canister's intake hose in the 29 and the canister's return hose in the 90.

Personally, I prefer a drilled overflow over an HOB because I find the HOB overflows to be less forgiving...they can lose prime and have to be restarted, and depending on the type, can be a real pain. A durso standpipe installed in a bulkhead fitting on a drilled tank can be made virtually silent, and the hose into the sump can be baffled to decrease the splashing noise when it hits the sump.

Mark

[Oscarcrazy]

No, this isn't what I have in mind. Forget the idea of a veggie tank underneath. The 90g – by itself – will have no CO2, no plants, no ferts, no bright light. It will have sand, rocks and fish. That's it.

Where the whole bit about the high tech planted 29g comes into play is that I'm tearing this tank down to make room for the 90g tank. That means I have a 29g tank full of fish, plants, injected CO2, decent lighting, et. al. So what do I do with it?

Mix into the equation the issues of O2 and nitrates in the 90g all rock/sand/fish tank.

So I got to thinking... what if I put my high tech planted 29g tank under the 90g cichlid tank as a refugium or sump or something to that effect? The plants in the 29g would grow well because they get all the need, included the injected CO2 I already have on that tank. And the 90g could reap the benefits of the plants removing nitrate and adding O2 into the water. As far as dosing ferts, that's optional, but if I do, there's nothing to say I have to add nitrate ferts.

The question is whether this is a good idea, and if so, how do I do it? Does that help clarify?



This is what I'm thinking of doing, but how do I do the actual plumbing between the two tanks and filters? (Do I have to use a HOB overflow?)

You have to use an overflow or risk draining the tank, flooding the floors, general disaster. An overflow will restart after a power outage, will match the flow of the sump pump (as long as the pump is not to powerful), and will never lose syphon. You can find one on here or marsh or build your own. Diy jobs seldom look nice though. Just make sure you have a ball valve on the drop from tank to sump so you can tune it make it silent. I'd modify you 29 a bit, just put in one sheet of plexiglass (glass, whatever) to make a small compartment for our outflow from the tank to go then have it flow over and into the planted part. Using the xps you can just have them pull water out of the planted section and into the main tank.
hope this helps

[Darbex]

To stop overflow from happening on this set up would be the same as a wet/dry. The water level in the 29G has to be lower than fully filled so that if one pump stops running the runoff into the 29G will max out eventually you have to figure out where that is and make sure your water line in the 29G is below that when everything is running good. That is the same principle in a wet/dry you have a max water line that you fill it in the event of power failure or faulty pumps. If you set the output higher in the water column of the 90G it will suck up air sooner than if it were lower.

[wesleydnunder]

To stop overflow from happening on this set up would be the same as a wet/dry. The water level in the 29G has to be lower than fully filled so that if one pump stops running the runoff into the 29G will max out eventually you have to figure out where that is and make sure your water line in the 29G is below that when everything is running good. That is the same principle in a wet/dry you have a max water line that you fill it in the event of power failure or faulty pumps. If you set the output higher in the water column of the 90G it will suck up air sooner than if it were lower.

I got you, Darbex, set the intake for the top pump up hi so that it runs dry before it can overflow the sump. How do you tune the pumps so they're pumping exactly the same volume?

Mark

[Darbex]

I got you, Darbex, set the intake for the top pump up hi so that it runs dry before it can overflow the sump. How do you tune the pumps so they're pumping exactly the same volume?

Mark

Hmm good one. Hope that if you have the same pump that they pump the same. Though I know that isnt always the case. So I see the issue in that. So just so you dont run into a problem an overflow box is probably the safer way to go then.

[Somefishguy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdpaQ_A-tqk

Good video to pick up tips so you dont flood you home

I would be a little iffy about using a canister filter, in case you do lose suction. Ide much rather burn out a cheapo powerhead than an expensive canister filter, but perhaps there is away i havent thought of to protect it form happening.

[Complexity]

Thank you all for the help! I now understand the basic operation of a sump as far as the intake and output of the water. The overflow is critical.

I knew using two canister filters was a recipe for disaster. I never considered doing it that way. I used that setup as a starting point for discussion. Basically to say I know this won't work, but how do you avoid the obvious issue of overflowing? You have addressed that. You address it one way and one way only: using an overflow box.

After looking at the options, I have decided I don't want to do a sump, refugium or wet/dry. It's not the kind of setup I want. I want to use two canisters. The XP2s are not large enough for a 90g tank. I think I'll grab two XP4s or large Eheim Pro IIs like I have on my current 75g.

If I run into a problem of low oxygen levels, that's easily handled by adding an airstone. Or, which I'd prefer if it works, allow air to enter the output tube via a venturi port.

If Nitrates become a problem, I'll look into various options for that. But my main goal will be to have enough bacteria built up in the two large canister filters to handle the nitrates between water changes. I'm planning on sticking with my normal 50% weekly water changes. So, I'm hoping that the large bacterial colonies in the two filters plus weekly water changes will keep the nitrates at bay. If not, I'll adjust things as needed.

I can always add a wet/dry, sump or refugium later if I want. For now, I think I'm going to stick with using canister filters.