Keeping higher pH with driftwood?

[SCOTT]

Re: Keeping higher pH with driftwood?

Oooops, yeah, SODIUM CHLORIDE. Calcium Chloride would be CaCl, hehe. My mistake on that one, same principle applies tho. Plain old non iodized table salt is fine.

[geoff_tropheus]

Re: Keeping higher pH with driftwood?

The tap in Pasadena comes out at pH of 7.8, the KH (Carbonate Hardness) is usally low at around 5dH, and the GH (general hardness) is high around 10dH.

In my Tanks, I add (1) tsp of Baking Soad per 10 gallons, and (1) tsp of Seachem Tank buffer per 20 gallons.

This puts my pH in the 8.0-8.4.  Then after two weeks, I check the water and the pH usually is at 7.5 or slightly higher.

I've tried some experiements, and like Scott said, you can add all the baking soda you want the the max the pH will get is 8.2.  If you wan higher than 8.2 you need Cichlid Salts of some kind.

Also, contrary to popular belief, Limestone does dissolve in water, but the pH has to be less than 7.5 or so.  But...the rate at which it dissolves does not really help in buffering capacity.  If it did, then you'd be replacing Limestone rock all the time in your aquarium.  I have some pieces that are over 10 years old, and they may have some etching.

Chris (Souljaa) would be better to talk about at what rate Limestone would dissolve in water and what pH it takes to make it dissolve, than me. He's a geologist.

[SOULJAA]

Re: Keeping higher pH with driftwood?

Thanks for the shout-out Geoff...but ya'll I'm only a geologist by education.

But here goes in an OVERLY SIMPLIFIED way...In the field, we would use diluted HCl to test rocks for any carbonate properties they may or may not have (particularly diff. types of sandstones). All sandstones have a "cementing element" to them...whatever it is which is holding the individual grains together which in turn makes a "rock". Think of Rice Krispies Treats...marshmallows would be the "cementing element" in that analogy. Well sandstones either have a dolomitic (dolomite being the root word) or a carbonate (meaning limestone) cement. 2-3 drops of diluted HCl on the surface of the rock after you have scraped it with your rock hammer (you need an unweathered surface - it works better) will cause an effervescence (fizzing). The more it fizzes, the more limestone present.

Now the diluted HCl we were using was about 1 mol...which is norm...and that translates to a ratio of about 1:9 (acid to distilled water). This is much WEAKER  than the diluted HCl commonly known as "stomach acid" which has a pH of about 2.

So I would have to say that the pH of a tank would have to be in the ballpark of around 4 (give or take a few) to really see an upward spike in pH due to the presence of limestone. Water does dissolve it, but the acid component isn't strong enough to chart immediate changes.

Now away from the podium I shall step!!!!!

[SOULJAA]

Re: Keeping higher pH with driftwood?

UPDATE...I tested my water this morning, and the pH is up around 7.5. I did however include a lil' bit of Epsom in "The Elixir" last night to see if it works, and it does. My initial recipe was: 1 tblspn. Epsom, 1 tspn. Baking Soda, 1 tspn. of Salt EACH PER 5 gals.

Well, it should be 1 teaspoon of Epsom per 5 gals NOT 1 tablespoon per 5 gals.

Last night I used: 7 tablespoons of Epsom, 14 tablespoons of Baking Soda, 14 tablespoons of Sea Salt (from H.E.B.), and about 120-150 ozs. of water (from the tank). Stirred it until everything was dissolved, and then pour it into the 200 gals. This recipe raised it roughly .5 degrees, so I have to wait and see if the driftwood will bounce it back. I will then be able to see if the buffer has kicked in.

[Mzungu]

Re: Keeping higher pH with driftwood?

What a great couple of posts, thanks guys!

:think:  So, wait...what does limestone (holey rock or other) actually do when it's in your aquarium? And it's calcium carbonate, which is the same as aragonite...so does any form of calcium carbonate do anything, at least in a pH above 4? If my questions sound silly, just tell me.  I'm no good with geology.  :)

[SCOTT]

Re: Keeping higher pH with driftwood?

Unless you are running a calcium reactor, which in essence takes Co2, injects it into the water in the reactor  making it acidic, which in turn breaks down the calcium, inserting it into the water column which is then airated to remove the Co2 and retain the now liquified calcium. Not much other than look pretty, hehe. The rock basically is inert until it encounters acidic water, which in the case of an aquarium, should never be acidic enough to cause a reaction. Correct me if I'm wrong Soul, but that's the way I learned it, and why I never bothered to waste the money on Aragonite or any of the crushed coral. Altho, I do own a piece or 2 of holey rock, strictly for appearances sake.

[SOULJAA]

Re: Keeping higher pH with driftwood?

Scott, you are right. But long answer short, and once again greatly simplified...the smaller the pieces, the "more immediate" the effect. So in the case of Aragonite, it is already fractured/fragmented (not only visibly, but also molecularly). So theoretically, it shall "dissolve" faster than, say, a huge chunk. Think crushed ice vs. a block of ice. So like Scott said, in a calcium reactor, those fragmented pieces are made even smaller b/c now we're dealing w/ a liquid or a really fine powder. For all you "Java Junkies" (heard that term from a collegue....no disrespect ya'll  :goodman: ), think of a powdered sweetener vs. sugar cubes. Typically, the smaller material will dissolve at a rate more sensible (i.e. you can see it, taste it, etc...).

Now that brings into play another point...would aragonite still impact a tank's pH more noticably than the same amount of holey rock if it was crushed and fragmented in the same manner? Well, I would say no...no being said on the grounds that the overall composition is different, eventhough the base component (carbonite) is the same. So this also has to be taken into consideration. I'm tryin' to think of a food analogy for this one :think:   The only thing that come to mind is sugar. Caramel and powdered sugar are both products based on sugar, just processed differently...therefore certain things are added to get the finished products. Allow a teaspoon of both to sit in diff. cups of H2O @ room temp., and observe which will dissolve faster. It's all based on the crystalline structure of both materials b/c some structures are more stable (stronger) than others.

Awww man....MY BAD Y'ALL!!!  :doh: I didn't mean to take it all the way there...PLEASE FORGIVE ME  :bsoop:

[wvgdiscus]

Re: Keeping higher pH with driftwood?

Souljaa
I am assuming your just talking about if the holey rock is crushed or crushed coral is just placed in the tank.
What if the crushed holey rock or crushed coral was put directly into the canister filter. Would that not provide more of a stabilizer for the PH?

I ask this cause with it laying on the bottom it does not get that much water over it. On the other hand being in the canister it has the max flow over it & would have more of an effect on all the water.

[SOULJAA]

Re: Keeping higher pH with driftwood?

Yes Discus...the scenerio is in the context of it being used as substrate as opposed to media. The more water movement present, the larger the amount of energy. More energy=faster chemical reactions.

[Mzungu]

Re: Keeping higher pH with driftwood?

Souljaa - I'm not going to forgive you, that was an excellent explanation, thanks!!  :clap:

[SOULJAA]

Re: Keeping higher pH with driftwood?

Thank you, but :shhh:  Don't tell nobody...they may think I'm smart!!!

[geoff_tropheus]

Re: Keeping higher pH with driftwood?

Chris, yourrr tha man! 8)

The sand substrates do so much better, that's why you need to be careful not to remove your fines from your substrates.  The fines is what is working for you, not the bolulders or chunks or gravel bits.

[SOULJAA]

Re: Keeping higher pH with driftwood?

:emtthumbs:  Only if you say so Geoff...