Texas Not Eating

[SOULJAA]

Okay, I've got a situation over here  

My Texas cichlid pair has eaten in about seems like about 2 wks. I had fry in the tank about a week ago (approx. 1/2"). Day 1: Some got suck in the filter, which I didn't know about until coming home from work and seeing 95% of them dead at the bottom of the tank. Now the dead fry in the filter had caused a rather bad ick and body slime outbreak in the tank. Treated the ick w/ ick clear, salt, and an increased water temp...along w/ a complete tank/filter cleaning. Day 2: The parents, well at least the moms, was breathing heavily and rather lathargic (sp?) at the bottom. The pops had jumped out the tank and was completely underneath the tank stand!!!! I know....should've had the entire top of the tank covered and decreased heat setting...that problem has been solved. But after alot of praying   (Yes, He does answers prayers... THANK YOU JESUS!!!) and Melafix, the pops has sinced bounced back. Actually, by the night's end he was str8. Fin damage...yes, about 4-5 on a 10 scale...fiestiness...hell yeah (which he hasn't been b4)...stressing/fighting the female...HE WON'T STOP  :axe: he's on time out right now  :badsmiley: the female's color has lightened noticibly and she's smaller (obviously from not eating). She was clearing out a hole in the gravel, and I know she does this when she's about to spawn. But her color would normally change (pure white from snout to mid-body and black from mid-body to tail-tip). But this time around, both of their behaviors are more than strange  

So what's do ya'll think...should I give them some time to get their appetities back due to all of the medication/stress they've been exposed to, or is it something I need to do to jumpstart their appetites??? I'mma kinda clueless at this point b/c all of the tricks of the trade that I know hasn't worked :aua:  So somebody PLEASE help a souljaa out!!!!!!! :bshelp:

[Mzungu]

Re: Texas Not Eating...

When did all this happen? When you say day 1, do you mean a week or two ago, or two days ago? Just wondering, because if it was 2 days or so ago, I'd think they wouldn't be eating because of stress, but then if you think about it, they would have been stressed for the past two weeks as well, which might be a separate cause...does that make sense?

When you did the total cleaning, how much water did you change? You might have disturbed some of the bacteria in the filter/gravel, etc. causing an ammonia or nitrite spike...? And lastly, do you have any records of the water parameters, or have you tested the water recently?

But hey, good job on saving the male! Amazing!

[MultiFry]

Re: Texas Not Eating...

i think you might have some perfect storm going.

ok, the below is my opinion - others may have differ interpretation.  I can only suggest you cultivate input and perform what logicaly would work best for you.

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points of observation
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- dead fry dont cause ick, temp changes (like houston has had in recent past) are usually the root of ick.

- dead fry can cause amonia spike.  (this may be partial attributed to the fish gasping).

- fry that eat the parents slime coat will cause the parent high stress, especially the female as CA & SA fry appear to host the female over male.  This will cause gasping as the female cannot escape her fry.

- the body slime could also be contributing to the fish gasping

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my recomendation
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- go down to home depot, spend $10 on a flourenscent light cover grate 4x2.  When you get home, cut the grate to create a tank seperator.  Stick in your tank and separate the male and female.

- change 20 % of your water and use Seachem's Prime to remove the amonia and stablize the nitrate nitrite levels.  Test your water daily to ensure you are within acceptable perimeters.  Use Prime, as needed, daily to re-stablize the environment after testing  

- you say you've salted the tank.  I follow this recommedation - dosage level has proved very effective for myself , sorry for not embedding the link - the BBCode appears to not be enabled for my user profile:

http://library.kcc.hawaii.edu/external/ctsa/notes/vol11/rnvol11n1.htm

(scan down to where it says ICH in big font)

- bring your temp up slowly to 87*f (this kills off protazoa) over 24 hours

- increase airation

- if you've done all the above recommended bullets, more than likely your fish will have stopped gasping. (assuming no ick, water parems are within reason, and body slime has not become worse.)  I would stop at this bullet.  If you fishes are still gasping, read further.

- if fry continue to host off the female's normal body slime, and are causing incredible stress to the point that female is trying to escape - seperate the female from the fry.

- if the body slime persist and the they refuse to eat, or becomes worse, you need to ID what type of body slime - fungal, bacterial (columnaris), parasitical.  The google image search is a great place to start.  Should you feel that this might be caused by bacteria or parasitical  - I would begin treatment (combined w/ above salt treatment) w/ formaldehyde & copper solution.  I use Formalin @ 34% with coppersafe, or an alternative of Organi-Cure (17% formaldehyde 1.25% copper).  Organi-Cure is a saltwater remedy, but works well in fresh @ double dose infused @ 50% over 24hrs. NOTE: this is not great for the fry, you may have to take your fry losses and salvage the breeder stock for another day.  Should you feel the body slime to be caused by fungal -  use Jungle's tablet form of Fungas Clear.  Some people prefer using Potassium Permanganate for all three causes of body slime.  I do not know where to derive this Potassium Permanganate, but if you choose to go this route - please let me know where you bought the Potassium Permanganate from.  (if it's any consolation - one time i went with a 'kitchen sink' approach using Formaldehyde, copper, and fungus clear.  This works, all my fish lived, including tx cichlid fry @ 3/4 inch)

- whatever you do - i would stay away from anything with Malachite Green.    This stuff sucks at effective dosing rate for small and scaleless fish (harms them).


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hope the above helps.  please remember, the above is my opinion based on experience.  others may have differ opinion.  I can only suggest you cultivate input and perform what logicaly would work best for you.

BTW - what type of tx cichlids are you breeding?  escondido?

[Mzungu]

Re: Texas Not Eating...

MultiFry - to jump in quickly, I bought my potassium permanganate at Lowes, it's in the water treatment aisle (the Lowes by my apt. has it in the bathroom section).

[MultiFry]

Re: Texas Not Eating...

Mzungu - thanks for the heads up on potassium permanganate.  I've been looking for that stuff forever.  although, not in the right places.  I have to swing by and get a bunch.

[szidlon]

Re: Texas Not Eating...

Mzungu - thanks for the heads up on potassium permanganate.  I've been looking for that stuff forever.  although, not in the right places.  I have to swing by and get a bunch.

I bought some online from a Chemistry Supply place.  A little goes a long way, the two pounds I have will probably last me the rest of my life.  If I were in town I'd offer some of mine, however, I'm in San Antonio until Saturday.  The Home Depot by me didn't even know what I was asking for, much less where it might be located in the store if they had it.  I didn't try Lowes, just went online to find some.

[SOULJAA]

Re: Texas Not Eating...

Okay, I'mma try to answer everyone's questions...

1) This all occurred Thurs. and Fri. of last week.
2) By complete cleaning I mean: vacuumed gravel; disassembled, clean sludge from, remove dead fry from, reassembled  filter.
3) Dead fish don't cause ick, rapid temp. shift does. I was trying to imply that the dead fry threw the tank chemical parameters off. Couple that w/ the much cooler weather as of late here in TX City == Ick, Body Slime (I know Ick can cause excessive amts. of mucus) on their snouts, Appetite loss.
4) Not exactly sure the type of TX b/c I'm not sure how the escondito looks. I've never heard of that type. I've always thought I have maybe the cyanoguttatum. Does that even make sense?
5) I have no records of water parameters, but Prime is really all I use. Although, I was given some AquaSafe so I have used that lately. But when I cleaned the tank I made sure to use Ol' Faithful...Prime. I ordered a test kit from PetSolutions but received it damaged. So I'm waiting for the replacement.
6) Neither fish has any symptoms from this past wknd. The female breathes hard from the male chasing her around the tank. (BTW their tank is maybe a 40 Hexagon).  Because of the shape of the tank, creating a divide will be somewhat a challenge.  However, I need to find a way to separate them b/c he's trippin' all the out!!! I have him in a large hamster ball now, but I won't/don't want to keep him there.  If placed in the tank on a slant, the grate may work.

I'm thinking I will just have to wait it out for the stress symptoms to subside (fin tips regenerate, color returns, etc...). I'm hoping their appetite then returns. I was just wondering if it's anything I could try to maybe give them an incentive to eat...like maybe Seachem's GarlicGaurd or something else that may exist. I normally would feed them Hikari Cichlid Staple and/or Gold (and feeder goldfish and rosy reds on occassions), which they generally prefer.  Holla Back ya'll!!!!!

[Mzungu]

Re: Texas Not Eating...

Hmm...so they hadn't been eating for about 2 weeks before any physical signs showed up that you noticed?  :think: I don't know much about cichlids, so maybe someone else will come in here and say if that's normal or not around spawning...

Are you still treating for ich, temperature, meds, etc? Have you done any more water changes? I'd be worried about what the water parameters are, just because of all the dead fry...do you know when you'll be getting the test kits?

[MultiFry]

Re: Texas Not Eating...

i would try feeding brine.  

that stuff is like fish crack for Central Americans.

if they refuse that, then you have some other problem.

(i can say that throughout my breeding experiences, with incredible stress induced on the CA cichlid females from males and fry, that none of mine have ever stopped eating)

never heard of additives to increase appetite.  not to say they wouldn't exist.....

[SOULJAA]

Re: Texas Not Eating...

Mzunga...I stopped treating for the illnesses earlier in the week. I've done 2 w.c.'s since then. I removed all of the dead fry last week and followed the removal w/ an immediate w.c. I bought some misc. aquarium supplies from a garage sale last wknd., and a old test kit was included. I just have to go thru it to see if it can be used.

Multifry...I'mma try the brine shrimp. I've never used brine shrimp b4. So I'm kinda excited about that.  Crack you say huh ...I'mma let ya'll know how it works. Thanks for the feedback ya'll.

[MultiFry]

Re: Texas Not Eating...

did the brine work?

[SOULJAA]

Re: Texas Not Eating...

Multifry...I didn't get around to the brine shrimp, but both of them are eating again. I had some rosy reds in the each of the tanks, and the only remaining are about 3 in the female's tank. I had to separate them b/c the female was buggin'!!! So I think the loss of appetite was due to stress...from the illnesses, meds., and each other wanting to fight the other. The female is rearranging her tank, so I'mma wait to see if she's gonna lay eggs again. Then I'll put them back together right b4.

[MultiFry]

Re: Texas Not Eating...

she should lay again in about 2-3 weeks.

What i do with one pair of mine more agressive CAs is to keep separated by the grate divider and place a slate right next to that divider.  The female and male always try to flash and fight, this excites the female, she lays the eggs on the slate.  At this point, the male will swim vertical against the divider trying to fertilize.  Although i wonder about his shooting range, i will remove the divider to allow close contact.  I keep them together for three days - then seperate again.  Eggs will hatch in 3-4 days, turn to wigglers for 3-4 days, then turn to fry.  At about 2-3 weeks the fry start to host off the female slimecoat,  let this happen for 1-2 weeks, then separate the female from fry.  (i've seen very aggressive CA fry host off the males, but rarer.  Usually keep the male in with fry for 2 months then remove him too)

happy breeding and best of luck.

[SOULJAA]

Re: Texas Not Eating...

No doubt...it's always good to get/hear about how others are breeding.
When my pair of Jaguars spawn, the fry will eat off the male all the time. Not exclusively, but every litter I've had has done it...but that is SA not CA