Disease or aggression or both?

[Complexity]

Is it possible that Blue German Rams are fighting at night after lights are out? Or could I have something else going on?

General tank info:

• 29g tank, moderately to heavily planted, injected CO2 with pH controller, EI ferts (dosing haphazardly, I must admit), turbo twist 3x9w UVS (turned on just 2 days ago), two Coralife double T5NO fixtures, two Rena XP2 canister filters, weekly water changes of 50%, straight tap water with Prime.
• The tank is well established for over a year. It was moved 9 months ago, but all has been well since other than a battle with BBA.
• About 9 female guppies (raised from fry a year ago), 2 ottos, 3 chain loaches, 4 pygmy cories. Recent additions 10 long fin white clouds (after 3+ weeks of Q/T) and 12 rams (6 gold, 6 blue german). I did not Q/T the rams. 2 small male endlers (thrown in when I got the rams).

What's happening is that I'm waking up to dead fish every day. They're fine during the day, but dead the next morning. One ram had an injury close to his eye that became infected (white fuzz). He was swimming and eating well, but eventually died. This morning, I noticed another ram with a small speck of white fuzz on her side.

Before anyone rips me apart for putting so many rams in the tank, know that I did it with the intention of allowing them to form their own bonds and hierarchy. I know they are cichlids. I expected most to die. I wanted to let them work it out so only the strongest would survive. So when I was down to a bonded pair of gold rams and a second bonded pair of blue german rams, I wasn't surprised.

Then I woke up to one of the two remaining gold rams being dead. His mate was still doing good. Next morning, she was hiding. I moved her to my Q/T tank where she later died. That left a single bonded pair of Blue German Rams.

This morning, I woke up to 2 dead white clouds and 1 dead guppy. And the female ram now has a small white fuzz spot on her side. White cloud deaths could be due to the tank's temperature being too high. Otherwise, all dead fish show no signs of injury or disease.

What was also odd was that my 3 chain loaches had faded colors this morning. I've never seen that before. But 30 minutes after the lights were on, their colors returned to normal. I find this to be really odd. In general, most fish are more stressed with the lights on than off so why would the chain loaches color up after the lights were on for half an hour? Moreover, during this half hour, I was messing with tank, removing dead fish. You'd think that would stress the loaches, not cause them to regain color.

My thoughts are that the male blue german ram may be attacking fish at night. I don't see any aggression during the day. But everything seems to be happening at night. Fish are fine during the day, but dead the next morning.

However, maybe there is a disease killing them? Even though only 2 of the fish have shown any signs of disease (white fuzz) which I took as a secondary result of injury, maybe there's something else going on that I can't see? Maybe more than one thing?

I just added Melafix to the tank. I don't have Pimafix at the moment, but I've ordered some that will arrive next week. I've also ordered medicated food that should arrive next week.

Could all of this be caused by aggression of the male blue german ram? Could they be aggressive only at night? He doesn't seem aggressive during the day, and behaves very happy, readily swimming all over and eagerly eating. He always hangs out with the female. I have not seen any signs of them guarding eggs or fry. The female does not have a pink belly.

What do you guys think? Are the white clouds dying due to temperature? Is there an aggression problem at night? Is there a disease going through the tank? All of the above?

[wesleydnunder]

For one, I think the tank was over-stocked. This could have resulted in some water quality issues that contributed to the white fuzz, which, without seeing it could have been fungus or columnaris. Adding 12 fish at once might have spiked the ammonia and nitrite in the tank for a while until the biofilter grew to handle it. I understand that you have two filters on the tank but the biofilter colony prior to adding the rams was large enough to consume the ammonia prior to their addition. With the added bioload of 12 fish the bacteria bed has to play catch-up. That's no longer an issue most likely.

You may have also had some aggression issues going on between the rams as well. Rams are also not fish that form lifetime pairs. They're heremically polygamous and do best with a single male and three or four females, which cuts down on spawning pressure of the male to a single female in a pair situation. Read Paul Loiselle's, 'The Cichlid Aquarium'. The footprint on a tank that small doesn't allow for several males to claim adequate territories and you may have had some fighting going on that resulted in the injuries you saw. It's also possible that the rams may have tried to assert dominance over the loaches...never a good idea when the recipient has sharp cheek spines. I've never kept chain loaches so the presence of cheek spines is an assumption from my experience with other loaches.

Mark

[Complexity]

Oh, great. I screwed up the dosing of Melafix. I double dosed. I know the cap says 10ml, but my head still registered 5ml.

Just did a 50% water change which sets the level right. Had a couple of fish at the top of the tank which is what alerted me to my mistake. They're swimming around quite happily now.

[Complexity]

Good point about the bacteria, Mark. Plus, I also added the white clouds about a week after the rams. Water quality hasn't been an issue for so long, I wasn't really paying close attention. The water change I just did should give relief if water quality was declining.

Yes, chain loaches have the spines. That does fit the injury. I've added some caves and tubes to allow for better escape, if needed. Before now, just the natural nooks and crannies of a planted tank with driftwood was enough, but maybe some extra caves can help.

I don't know if these last two rams will make it or not. If they do, great. If not, I think I'll pass on trying them again. I didn't know they needed so much footprint size, and I was hoping to add a pair of Pelvicachromis when I upgraded the tank. However, even though the new setup will have more water volume, the footprint won't be that much more since I'm going with a 36"x18" footprint.

I have to say I am enjoying watching the two rams for now. They really seem to like each other. If she dies, I think I'm going to just stick with the one lone male (assuming he survives).

Thanks for the help. I need to keep the basics in mind, especially with a smaller tank. I guess my eyes got too big for my tank this time around.

[imagirlgeek]

Here's something to think about since the tank is heavily planted and heavily stocked.

During the 'lights on' period, the plants are using the light and CO2 for energy and releasing the byproduct (Oxygen) into the water for the fish to use.

During the 'lights off' period, the plants can no longer photosynthesize, so they turn to the oxygen they created during the day to sustain life. So at night, you've got all the fish PLUS all the plants using oxygen. Just like people, the fish and plants breathe in Oxygen, and breathe out CO2. So at night, you have no extra O2 being released by the plants, plus everyone in the tank using up the O2 that is there, plus all that respiration releasing CO2 into the water.

The reason I looked into all this is because I have a heavily planted tank that is also heavily stocked with SA puffers. Everyone was always fine during the day, but I noticed that when the lights went off, they got very agitated in their behavior. I looked closely and they were gaspy as well. I now have a bubbler that comes on at night when the lights go off. I also turn the CO2 off at night. They are so much better now.

[Complexity]

Thanks for the info, imagirlgeek! What you described is very possible. While I check the fish day and night when I adjust the CO2 level, I never thought to check again after adding more fish. I'm running a very high level of CO2 (beyond green and into yellow on the drop checker). It's high enough to do exactly what you're saying.

I'll watch the fish at night and early morning before the lights go on. This may explain why I'm seeing vigorously healthy fish die overnight with no signs of injury or illness right after adding heavily to the fish load.

[Zulaab]

I wanna say something that might not settle well with everyone but I will put it out here.
I used seen many people who have gene mutated fish, ie electric blue JD, blue german rams etc.. Because these fish are breed for a recessive gene, there is a better than average chance that these fish are weaken by their breeding. To keep them alive Indonesian breeders are known to give these fish steriods to keep them alive and once the steriods over time leaves the body of the fish, they go back their weaken state. At this point almost NOTHING will kill these fish. I have seen a tank of Electric JD's young die off in a two week period, and the tank was cleaned and water changes regular..

[Complexity]

'll watch the fish at night and early morning before the lights go on. This may explain why I'm seeing vigorously healthy fish die overnight with no signs of injury or illness right after adding heavily to the fish load.

Well, that's not it. All fish were very happy at all times I checked, including just before lights on. I checked numerous times. No signs of stress whatsoever.

The two remaining rams appear to be doing good. The female with the tiny bit of fuzz is as vigorous as ever, and I can only see a tiny bump where the fuzz was. She and the male continue to pair up.

I did see something very odd yesterday. The female had something sticking out of her. It might have been poop, but it was thicker than I'd expect. Plus, the color was more yellowish and dotted. I had just fed the fish frozen baby brine shrimp, and the coloring and all looked the same. I wondered if it could have been eggs that were being aborted or something because of the thickness of it. It didn't bother her any, and once it fell off, she continued to behave fine. It was not at all stringy. Just like thick poop.

I lost another long fin white cloud this morning. It was showing signs of stress yesterday. I am pretty sure the water temp is just too high for them. I have a bad feeling I'll lose them all.

Otherwise, all fish are doing good.

I wanna say something that might not settle well with everyone but I will put it out here.
I used seen many people who have gene mutated fish, ie electric blue JD, blue german rams etc.. Because these fish are breed for a recessive gene, there is a better than average chance that these fish are weaken by their breeding. To keep them alive Indonesian breeders are known to give these fish steriods to keep them alive and once the steriods over time leaves the body of the fish, they go back their weaken state. At this point almost NOTHING will kill these fish. I have seen a tank of Electric JD's young die off in a two week period, and the tank was cleaned and water changes regular..

I've read about this, and I have wondered if that could have contributed to losing the rams. The lone remaining male has a bent spine. Otherwise, he's gorgeous. I had hoped he wouldn't be the one to survive, but he is.

I have decided that I will not buy rams again. It's a shame because I really love their appearance, but they just may not be the fish for my tank.

Other good news is that all other fish are looking good. The loaches have retained their normal color and are vigorously swimming and eating. The pygmy cories seem completely unaffected by all of this.

At this point, think I'm dealing with a combination of (1) losing white clouds due to high water temp, (2) losing rams due to a combination of inherent weakness/sensitivity and aggression with (3) rams with injuries that develop infection (fuzz) and (4) loss of one guppy due to aggression.

I know that sounds convoluted, but it all does match the situation. I may have lost some fish earlier due to water quality of adding too many fish at once, but to be honest, none of the fish are showing behaviors that I'd expect if that's the case. Fish that die due to an ammonia spike generally decline, gasp at the surface, hide with clamped fins, have decreased appetites or stop eating completely, things along those lines. They generally don't swim and eat with full vigor and then drop dead overnight.

I'm going to continue treating with melafix since that seems to be helping that one small tuft of fuzz on the female ram and just keep a close eye on all the fish. I should know which direction things will go soon enough.

[cichlidchic]

white tufts signify a fungal infection. try treating with API General Cure (sold pretty much everywhere) and treat the tank. you treat them, then wait 48 hours and do one more round. but deffinately add airration. the cottony fuzz is a fungus though, and because of their genetic manipulation (i agree there, though it's not necessarily a bad thing if you are careful and into that sort of thing) are more suseptible to these diseases that may not effect the other fish except to show up as a stress level.

my reccommendation is airration, add some salt, and API general cure.

[Complexity]

Is API General Cure plant friendly? I also have to be careful to use products that are okay with pygmy cories and loaches.

Unless things start to get worse, I'm going to stay on track with what I'm currently doing. I have a UV sterilizer running on that tank, as well. However, it's all subject to change if the fish develop more problems. At this point, the fuzz is getting better (fuzz gone; wound needs to heal now) and all fish but that one white cloud appear to be doing well. I take that as a sign that whatever the cause(s) of the deaths, things are beginning to stabilize out now.

Oh, as far as aeration, with 2 Rena XP2 filters running, the tank has lots of aeration. In fact, I have to use flow controls to keep the water current from blowing the fish around. So I think I'm okay there, as well.