Help before the rest dies

[Zulaab]

1)Which fish have what symptoms:  Two of the three Green Terrors in 4 days died.
2)What medications have been tried:  None
3)When they were introduced to the tank, did fish from where they came from have symptoms:  None that I could see.
4)Numbers, size, and types of fish in your tank:  2 Oscars, 3 Green Terrors (now 1), 3 Pink Convicts, 2 Pleco
5)What, how much, and how often you feed:  2 times a day making sure that all food is consumed in 3-4 min
6)How much water you change and how often: Original water 10 days ago (all fresh), 50% 24hours after the first one died, done on day 7 after starting the tank, as I had a NO2 spike from 0 to 5 now back to .5 (safe)
7)When was the tank set up: 10 days ago
8)How many gallons: 60G
9)What's your water temperature: 78
10) NO3 = 20
11) NO2 = .5 (this spiked from 0-5, then water change back to .5)
12)What's your ph: 8.0-8.2
13)Hardness = 300
14) Chlorine = 0
15) Alkalinity = 75
16)What's your ammonia level: Unknown (how to test?)
17)Type(s) of filter(s): Penguin style (Walmart) with Bio filter and Active Carbon filter
18) how old is the fish food ? New
19) What is your water source? Tap
20) if tap water what chemicals does the local water company use ? Unknown.. uses Chlorine but I neutralize those.
21) if well water have you had it analyzed ? N/A
22) if you use RO water have you added anything ? N/A
23) Have you used any chemicals to clean or repair the tank ? No
24) when was the last time you did a water change ? 3 days ago (Saturday)
25) Anything else we should know:

The fish that died looked great until 24 hours before they died.. they suddenly didn't care for food and sat in the corner of the tank.  First the Male just lowered all its fins and didn't move, 24 hours later dead.  The day after that I replaced the water in the tank (50% because I noticed from testing the water that the NO2 Nitrite had gone off the scale (almost) 12 hours after the water change everything was back to normal.  All the other fish acted normally.  the remaining two green terror females ran around the tank as normal.  One started (the one that died) chased the other around for a while.. then last night it decided to go into the corner of the tank above the air stone and just sit there... didn't move from there until tonight when it came out to the front of the aquarium.  Then ran to the surface hit the glass top and then sank to the bottom dead.

[cichlidsooner]

Re: Help before the rest dies

If your tank is only ten days old, new gravel? new filters? If the answer is yes, umm I am guessing that your tank isn't cycled.Well prety sure it isn't cycled if it is only ten days old.  Does your water have a strong odor? Being that oscars are a"dirty" fish and that your tank hasn't acquired the healthy bacteria to break down the fish waste, sounds like ammonia, get some prime or amquel plus and start treating the water or you will have wasted your money on those fish because they will be toast, that or you will get tired of changing 30 gallons every other day. If you have another tank, get the dirty filters out of it and put those in your new tank. There is test strips for ammonia, there is one test strip that does five test at once.

I would say that you have an uncycled tank and too many fish for an uncycled tank.

[Zulaab]

Re: Help before the rest dies

Checked the following 5 minutes ago (1:20am Wednesday morning)

NO3 = 20
NO2 = 0
Hardness = 300
Alkalinity = 75
CHL = 0
PH = 8.0

I don't have a second tank, I have just started having fish again and the fish except for the green Terror's and Pleco's where given to me.  All the other fish do not show any symptoms.  I am worried maybe the Green Terrors came with something the rest of the tank does not have.  
You are correct about the filtration etc.. I am waiting patiently for the tank to cycle.  I am going to do another 15G water change on Saturday again and hope things gets better next week.  I just really pray I can figure out what is going on.  I have never had a fish in the past that I recall, just get sick and die 24 hours later (after being the dominant fish in the tank)  Then again back 22 yrs ago last time I had fish, it might have happened but I don't recall that far back into the past.

[cichlidsooner]

Re: Help before the rest dies

It is not likely that they will all show the symptons at the same time, possible but not likely. Once upon a time, I did the same thing with a 55 and only some fish kicked over while others didn't, but the ammonia was bad I could smell it. PRIME will get rid of the ammonia as well as the amquel plus. This way you won't have to do the water changes as much. Taking out larger amounts of water isn't always the answer because all your are doing is removing water that is starting to cycle and replacing it with water that has to start the process all over again. I highly suggest buying prime and using it. Follow the directions and it will do the trick to at least removing the harmful ammonia, ammonia=dead fish.

[eklikewhoa]

Re: Help before the rest dies

Sounds like your tank went through a cycle.... adding all those fish at one time probably shocked the tank.

[Spot86t]

Re: Help before the rest dies

If you can find someone near you with a tank, have them rinse their dirty filters and/or gravel in your tank.  It'll look nasty, but that's the quickest way to get a jump on good bacteria.  

When I'm setting up a new tank, I take my dirtiest sponge filters and rinse them in it.  I put a new sponge filter in there, and within a few hours it'll clear the water AND I'll have a new filter populated with a fair amount of good bacteria.  If I do this several days before I get whatever fish I have planned for that tank, I either snag one or two of my goldfish out of the pond or a fair quantity of guppies from my guppy pond and let them live in there so the good bacteria has some bad stuff to live off of until I get the final inhabitants.

[geoff_tropheus]

Re: Help before the rest dies

All symptons to me look like Nitrite and or Ammonia Poisoning from not having a cycled tank.

From what you have posted as results so far, you need to go to a fish store and get an ammonia tester or even a Petco or Petsmart will test your water for free.

I would monitor your aquarium daily once or twice.  IF you find the Nitrite getting higher than 0.5 then immediately perform 50% waterchange, but DO NOT VACCUM the gravel or clean the glass, just change water and be sure to use AMQUEL PLUS or PRIME as your water conditioner.  Those two are the best in my opinion.

If your Ammonia is too high, then perform daily waterchanges of 30-75% each time and do not vaccum gravel or clean your glass when you do this.

IF you can find someone near you with a tank, I would ask them for a dirty filter pad.  As awful as this may sound, you might even try a Petco or Petsmart that you trust is clean and ask them for a dirty pad.

If you do not want to miss around with all this dirty pad stuff, there are only two products I know that work.  One is BIO-SPIRA by Marineland, and the other is ECCO-START by Kent Marine.  Both these products should be availible at most fish stores.

I hope this helps...

Geoff

[Mzungu]

Re: Help before the rest dies

I disagree about changing the water during cycling - If your fish are stressed and/or dying, I think it's more important to help them out, regardless of whether it prolongs your cycle or not. So I think the water change was a good idea.  :)

How is the remaining green terror doing? Does she seem stressed out, or is she acting weird? My first thought was that the spike in nitrites combined with the bioload of the tank was the cause of their death.

One more thing, I'd recommend feeding only once a day for a while, until the tank's cycled. More food = more waste, which is something you don't need right now.

But like cichlidsooner said, you can buy tests for ammonia at pretty much any LFS. (The man loves to make 5-in-1 test strip bottles and leave out either ammonia or nitrate tests...  :evil:  )

[Mzungu]

Re: Help before the rest dies

Oops, must have been typing when geoff posted...sorry if I repeated anything!

[geoff_tropheus]

Re: Help before the rest dies

On the Jungle Brand 5 in 1 test strip, there is no ammonia pad because it's activator will release chemicals harmful to fish and interfere with the other test results.

This is why on the Junlge Brand Ammonia test stips, they say to use the test tube and do not use in the tank. It also has to do with the volume of water in the testube verses the tank.

The other tests just need to dip into the tank, flip over, and air dry for 30 seconds before looking at the results.

These test strips are really good for daily or weekly monitoring.  I use them and get good results.  If I see there is a problem with one parameter, I use the Tetra Test Kits with droplet testers, to confirm the results, if I have doubt of that result.  Kinda like getting a second opinion.

I use it also for determining my waterchange schedule, but that is a different topic.

Best of luck, and hope for the best for you!

[Zulaab]

Re: Help before the rest dies

Ammonia - I don't know what the amounts are right now in the tank.  I will purchase a ammonia tester on the way home and check it.

The remaining female Green Terror was the one who started out 10 days ago looking the worst because she was being chased around the tank, once the male died off she got it even worse from the now dead female.  Then two days ago she became good looking, happy and didn't care to much that she was being chased a little.  Her fins had some bite into it but they are now healing well and she looks in general good condition..

I am just baffled..  All the fish this morning eat their breakfast and looked happy...

[Mzungu]

Re: Help before the rest dies

Well, that's good!  

You shouldn't have any ammonia register on the tests, unless the bacteria that converts ammonia to nitrite to nitrate isn't numerous enough to handle the bioload. (That's also why I suggested feeding only once a day for a while.) But, an ammonia test is good to have around, and when something like this happens it's important to know everything you can about your tank.

I'm glad she's doing better!

[Zulaab]

Re: Help before the rest dies

Got an ammonia tester tonight.  Somewhere between .25 and .50 - It shows no more than stress for the water.
I have noticed now that the Oscars seems to rub themselves against the bottom or against items in the fish tank once in a while.
I am starting to wonder if I have some sort of parasite in the fish..   They only rub themselves against an object once an hour at best but they still eat like pigs and overall look happy.. At times their colors are so bright I am almost thinking they are thinking about breeding.....   Each time I feed them they hit the glass lid so hard that I can feel it move... They seem very happy... just a worried like hell owner...

[PhishPhreek]

Re: Help before the rest dies

If you are using zip drops or one of the other inexpensive chlorine removers you should know that most of the Houston water plants have upgraded to chloramines because they stay in solution longer.  Zip drops (Thiosulfate) will break the bond in Chloramine between the Chlorine and the Ammonia, and it binds Chlorine and most heavy trace metals. But it can leave deadly amounts of Ammonia in the water.

The ammonia which is left behind should be in nominal amounts.
However, you should test the ammonia level in your tank after treating it.
Ammonia test kits may give false readings if there is excessive amounts of thiosulfates (Hypo/zip drops) in the tested sample.
A high level of ammonia is toxic to most fish. Symptoms include:
Increased mucus layer on fishes mucus membrane, Swollen gills, Fin rot,
Flicking against hard surfaces, Gasping at the surface of the water,
Inability of fish to maintain its balance in the water

So make sure you get one of the new chemicals that are designed to neutralize chloramines.

[Zulaab]

Re: Help before the rest dies

I am using Tetra AquaSafe to treat the water with against Chlorine.
I just looked at the first while in the dark, and they are not breathing hard at all... its more like very little breathing at all... Now I know the fish are asleep except since the living room had a little light on, the Oscar's came to the feeding area of the tank and looked at me almost telling me "hey man, can I have a night snack before you head off to bed ?"
I dont see swollen gills at all, and no fin rot, the only thing I have seen in the last 24 hours is both Oscar's rubbing against a "plastic tree stump in the middle of the aquarium, and its the only thing I have seen them rub up against.. none of the other fish do this...  Again I checked tonight while the light was on to see if any of the fish showed signs of ICK but I dont see a single fish with white spots..
I will test the water again tomorrow to see if the Ammonia level has changed.