Bad water overnight?

[Andrew_B]

Hey all -

I live up in Spring/Woodlands and I had a pretty large disaster last night. Does anyone know if they had changed something in the tap water as of the last 48hours? I did a water change on my 55gal last night (40%) like normal, added aquarium salt, amquel+, ammolock (because my tap normal has a small ammonia reading) and the stress zyme. I woke up this morning to about a dozen dead fish in the corner, with about 5 left alive. With not knowing how long they died or what caused it, I did another small water change to get some of that "dead-fish" ammonia out of tank... an hour later, I heard some splashing in tank and there went the rest of my fish. Only survivors are my 2 itty bitty chocolate plecos.

This was my first tank, its been running about 8months - Due to how I previously did water changes (added chems/conditioners after the new tap water is in tank) which apparently is a huge nono, that my LFS pointed out recently - my tank has been going through a new bio cycle. I guess the chlorines in the water kept killing the good bacteria which never allowed tank to fully cycle. It's far and beyond over filtered (8 months of 2x 350 penguin biowheels and 2x 1200maxijets with sponge filter... and about 4 weeks ago, I added 2x 2215 eheim canisters) ... so I dont think proper filtration is an issue. The LFS said it has to be something chlorine based because a large ammount of fish wont die overnight all at the same time because of ammonia. All died with their mouths open also.

Has anyone else noticed anything different with the water the past couple nights? I am completely stumped - this is a learning process for me also, but this time, I don't think I didnt anything wrong, at least enough to wipe out every fish I own in a matter 12hours. I always though water changes were a good thing, but my last 2 killed fish!

Any ideas?

Thanks

[Gene D]

John Crowder (Fshfrk) can shed some light on this for you. He lives in Spring and has been having issues for some time now. They switched sources of water and have introduced chloramines into the water. According to him readings straight from the tap differ wildly from day to day. The biggest issue is the ammonia that is bonded to chlorine to form chloramines. I will let him share the specifics with you

[Andrew_B]

Thanks bud!
Yeah, ive had 0.25ppm ammonia in my tap for a while now, but with high/quality filtration, that would ideally go away fairly quick right? I tested my tap when I noticed this in the morning, and had the same reading. I wish I had some kind of way to test for chlorine. At the very least, looks like ill have to treat water in a bucket before adding to my tank instead of straight into it. Would like to hear more about it from John!

Thanks again

[Zulaab]

Open mouth deaths usually occurs because they are dont have enough Oxygen (O2) in the tank. Please remember that Amquel+ Prime etc uses the O2 in the water to convert the chemical process of Chloramines and Chlorine down to something that the fish can tolerate. If the tank does not have enough O2 for the fish too they are the ones who are going to suffer. Pleco's dont need very much O2 to live, which is why in a O2 starved tank they are going to be the last survivors.
Its very important when there is high amounts of Chloramines in the tap water that additional oxygen is added to the tank, so when the chemicals do their job dont rob all of the O2 in the tank.

[supadave]

Open mouth deaths usually occurs because they are dont have enough Oxygen (O2) in the tank. Please remember that Amquel+ Prime etc uses the O2 in the water to convert the chemical process of Chloramines and Chlorine down to something that the fish can tolerate. If the tank does not have enough O2 for the fish too they are the ones who are going to suffer. Pleco's dont need very much O2 to live, which is why in a O2 starved tank they are going to be the last survivors.
Its very important when there is high amounts of Chloramines in the tap water that additional oxygen is added to the tank, so when the chemicals do their job dont rob all of the O2 in the tank.

+1

Also , have you always used all those chemicals when performing water changes ? I personally , don't like to add a bunch of different chemicals to my tank . I think that when you add that many chemicals at one time.........you stand a chance of over dosing the tank.....starving the tank of oxygen , and/or causing a bad reaction . I think that you could probably use Prime or Safe and that will eliminate all the other chemicals .

[Andrew_B]

Hmm, that makes sense, but it's hard to see that I have lower O2 levels. The past few weeks I've been keeping my water level a good 1.5-2" below rim of tank, so that gives both my HOB filters a pretty good splash each, also have one of my powerheads near the top adding additional breaking of the water plane. I also keep my tank a pretty high Temp (81-82), but its been at that temp for probably 6months. I'll be sure to move my other powerhead near the top too from now on - throw in a couple air stones again also if needed.

I had read in a few different places and my LFS, was it's okay to triple dose amquel when tap water params are like mine in Spring - was always skeptical about doing it, but have been the last week or so.

Nah, I've only used all those as of recent, my tank has been a complete mess in terms of water params - about a month ago, I added the first of my two eheim 2215s, and the day after I did, I had ammonia spike to 8.0, along with nitrates and nitrates. I think it was more or less cooincidence, or adding a filter with such a large bio load to it make my tank realize that it was never actually fully cycled. (I think) A normal water change is a single dose of amquel, and aquarium salt. I use Ammolock now because of the high ammonia levels, and the stresszyme to jump start the cycle, but yeah - those arent always used.

I wish all this trial/error oredeal with learning aquarium care didn't cost so much! Large amount into this tank with litterally nothing to show for it! Well, back to the drawing board! )

Thanks guys!

[stevew14]

I do not have the misfortune of Chloramines in my water(yet). However, I have had two chlorine related disasters in the last ten years. Both were due to screwups on the water company's part. My usual method for water change and conditioner dose failed to keep up with the 2 to 3 times normal chlorine levels that were in the water at the time.

Now I test the tap each time for ammonia and chlorine before I refill. I use the ammonia test from the API master test kit and strips for low level chlorine from here:

http://sanitationtools.com/Products....88&Category=65.

I also filter my water through a carbon filter that John helped me make, use Prime and cross my fingers each time. After losing all my fish twice, I am gun shy and nervous every water change.

Anyway, if you want to be able to check for chlorine, these strips seem to work well. I think you can get a powder test kit somewhere as well that may be more accurate, but these should do the trick, and are easy to use.

Good luck.

Steve

[CichlidFan]

I started using a sponge filter in all my tanks a couple years ago too insure that there was always a fair amount of oxygen in the water....

CF

[supadave]

On second thought... Andrew_B... I'm starting to think that lack of oxygen may not have been the cause of your fish loss . From what you stated above.....the O2 level should have been fine . I'm leaning more to the conclusion that something is poisoning the fish . I'm thinking that it's probably a bad mix of chemicals that are burning your fish gills .

[FrontosaurusRex]

On second thought... Andrew_B... I'm starting to think that lack of oxygen may not have been the cause of your fish loss . From what you stated above.....the O2 level should have been fine . I'm leaning more to the conclusion that something is poisoning the fish . I'm thinking that it's probably a bad mix of chemicals that are burning your fish gills .

+1
Too many chemicals in the water.

[mgarrido]

+2. I'm with Dave conclusion.

[imagirlgeek]

I may be focusing on the wrong part of the story here, so forgive me if I'm offtrack, but you said that you heard splashing before the second round of deaths. When I've seen fish dying of chlorine/bleach contamination, they've laid on the bottom gasping (no splashing). The splashing tells me they were trying to get away from what was hurting them. Fish will jump when there are high ammonia levels or severe pH swings, and I'm sure a number of other problems. The open mouth at death is absolutely hypoxia. If they died with their mouths open, they couldn't breathe. There's no arguing that. But it sounds to me like that was secondary to something else. Did you test the tank water after the second round of deaths? Did you ever test for Nitrites?

Also, I can usually smell the chlorine when I run the water after the water company has shocked the system. Do you remember smelling anything from the tap?

[fshfrk]

I would switch to SAFE. It will handle the ammonia. The directions say use 1 teaspoon for every 250 gallons of water to handle chloramines. Thats kind of misleading because what about the ammonia that is released when you break the bond. The directions further say 1 teaspoon per 40 gallons to handle the ammonia. So use 1 teaspoon for every 40gal and safe will be all you need. Ammonia got your fish. I will pm you my number call me today if you want. John

[Andrew_B]

Wow, thanks for the replys guys - really appreciate it!

Just did a little more research. I found two chlorine test kits, all I could find short of ordering online. I snagged the Jungle 6 in 1 test strip from Petco, then went to Leslies Pool supply and found a liquid tester. Tested my tap, and both read only 0.5ppm, which is really low considering isnt 3-4ppm normal? Maybe the amount of conditioner I used was too much for that small amount of Chlorine.

Another thing I noticed, which is actually really interesting - while I used the 6 in 1 strips, I peeked at the KH/PH/Hardness of the water levels.
Tap water:
Ammonia: 0.25ppm
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Hardness: 150(hard)
Chlorine: 0.5ppm
KH: 180ppm
pH: 7.8

Overall, that seems pretty normal for tap water outside of the light ammonia readings, right? My tank normally kept at those same numbers with hardness/kh/ph, when I tested my water today for those same things, and got some really strange results.

Tank water:
Ammonia: 4.0 (at first I thought my tank was cycling... but normally you wouldnt get readings from all three at same time?)
Nitrite: 1.0ppm
Nitrate: 40ppm
-------------------
Hardness: 300
KH: 0
ph: 6.2
-----------------
Chlorine: 0

Any ideas on what could cause those severe drops? I already know im going to have to start completely over on my tank, but so I know what to do differently next time. Tomorrow, ill probably do a solid 95% water change, and go from there... seems like my tap is far and beyond better than my current tank water. Baffles me with how much time I put into the darn thing, but hey... Sh*t happens right? Now to just figure it out and try again!

Andrew

[supadave]

Question ? Did you do anything to the biological media in any of your filters ?