Salt Debate

[wesleydnunder]

Leading fish vet Chris Walster says: "Freshwater fish should be kept in freshwater, not any other.

"We have no idea of what effect placing freshwater fish in salted water has from a welfare perspective. We know that if we place freshwater fish in seawater that they will die sooner or later. We simply do not know, even at a low level of salt, whether it irritates the eyes or gills, etc.

"When we swim in the sea, the salt irritates our eyes. Is it the same for freshwater fish? Are there any other unknown effects which occur weeks, months or years later?"

Fish health expert Dr Peter Burgess says he certainly doesn't advocate salt for permanent use: "Unless the species has a natural requirement for salt, then we should not add salt to an aquarium (or pond).

"Tonic salt for freshwater fish is a bit like aspirin for humans: both medicines have many beneficial uses, but neither should be administered routinely just for the sake of it. Bear in mind that most tropical community tanks will contain salt-sensitive species, such as catfishes.

"Salt can be used as a supportive for salt-tolerant species, for example if the fish have severe ulcers or other major skin breaches that can place a burden on the osmoregulatory system. But healthy, unstressed fish do not need this support. Never use salt to compensate for bad fishkeeping!"

Mark

[wesleydnunder]

Here is a link to the aforementioned article by RTR.

http://theaquariumwiki.com/The_Salt_of_the_Earth

Mark

[FuzzyDragon09]

Wow! I only used salt on a regular basis because someone said it would help the fish. Now you're making me rethink my views.

This thread should get STICKY-D!

[wesleydnunder]

The only problem is that most water that is put into fish tanks is significantly devoid of natural salts that would be in the rivers and lakes the fish come from that is put there through rain and erosion. The point of adding salt to the tank is to simulate this since through processing of water salt and other vital minerals are removed from the water and replaced with other minerals such as flourine and chemicals like Chlorine and Chloramines.

Sorry Darbex, I have to disagree with this. Our local water in the Houston area is much higher in TDS than most native bodies of water, excluding the rift lakes and some rivers.

Mark

[wesleydnunder]

This is one of the many reasons we add salt to our foods. If all we did is eat meats unsalted and plants and drank only purified water we would be lacking important electrolytes because the foods mentioned above do not produce enough.

An important distinction here: we aren't fish and our bodies deal with our environment differently than theirs does. Also, check some nutrition sites and see how many advocate adding sodium to our diet versus what we get from the foods we eat. We can get all the nutrients we need if we eat correctly. The only supplement we tend to need is vitamin D because we don't get enough sunlight for our skin to make enough. We salt our food for taste.

Mark

[Mzungu]

We can get all the nutrients we need if we eat correctly.
Mark

+1!

Same goes for fish, in my point of view. Your above quote mentioned bad fishkeeping. I don't think adding salt is bad fishkeeping, but I think that if we did take the best possible care of the fish in our aquariums, salt wouldn't be a factor to be debated. Similar to what you said, Mark, we as a society tend to overmedicate, and medicate for preventative reasons. Do I do this? Of course! I don't eat right! Who does? When I start feeling a bit under the weather, I take vitamins and load up on healthy foods. But that's my fault. I believe that if I ate right, I would bounce back quickly. Anyways, I think the same goes for our fishes. We CAN provide them an ideal environment. Adding all the salt and meds and such that we as a fishkeeping community do can only hurt them in the longrun. Just like too many antibiotics can be detrimental. I say let their bodies work naturally.

I plan on reading that article when I get home, so I'm not sure if this is mentioned...but I remember reading an article years ago that said something along the lines of (totally paraphrasing here) adding salt makes the osmoregulation process of fishes not work as hard. The person was debating whether or not this was beneficial. In my view, why mess with something that took hundreds of millions of years to evolve out of necessity?

:)

[Darbex]

I am not talking about the over salting that we do I am talking in general. I agree we over salt our foods due to taste. But there is a certain level of salt that we need for brain and muscle functions. With fish the intake is much easier for them than us as they can directly intake the needed electrolytes through the skin as opposed to consumption this is why I am not in favor of doing the recommended dosage. In general most drinking water is in the range of 15-45 ppm. Most rivers can range from 100-700 ppm. Which depends on where in the world it is and time of year. While I can grant you the fact that when it is the wet season the levels can drop below 100 ppm in the Amazon river system due to the abundance of fresh water in the system mostly it is above this level. We will have to agree to disagree on this situation

[Complexity]

I don't add salt, and my fish do great. I second Mark's comments. Salt is unnecessary and potentially harmful when used continuously for healthy freshwater fish.

I only use it if I need to combat disease, but to be honest, I have very few problems with disease so that's not even an issue (I do have UV sterilizers and use Q/Ts for new fish).

The single most helpful thing anyone can do to ensure healthy fish is to do proper water changes. Clean water is far more healthy for the fish than any other wonder drug or additive.

[wesleydnunder]

I am not talking about the over salting that we do I am talking in general. I agree we over salt our foods due to taste. But there is a certain level of salt that we need for brain and muscle functions. With fish the intake is much easier for them than us as they can directly intake the needed electrolytes through the skin as opposed to consumption this is why I am not in favor of doing the recommended dosage. In general most drinking water is in the range of 15-45 ppm. Most rivers can range from 100-700 ppm. Which depends on where in the world it is and time of year. While I can grant you the fact that when it is the wet season the levels can drop below 100 ppm in the Amazon river system due to the abundance of fresh water in the system mostly it is above this level. We will have to agree to disagree on this situation

Again, I maintain that we can get the minerals and metals we need from the food we eat. Granted some supplements may be needed time to time. Wild animals do it all the time at natural mineral deposits and salt licks.

Now, on the question of fish. Freshwater fish do NOT take in electrolytes through their skin. Osmosis and diffusion are working together to try to push water into the skin while pulling electrolytes OUT of the body. The only place a fish takes IN chloride is in the gills, where there is an ionic exchange of chloride entering the fish for ammonia exiting the fish.

Most drinking water around the world may be between 15-25 ppm, and I'm assuming you mean just the sodium content as TDS is much higher in most surface-obtained drinking water that doesn't come from an RO system, but in our area, the TDS can run up to 700 ppm with around 200 ppm of that being sodium, according to the last report I got from my provider. If your drinking water comes from a different surface source, the numbers are probably different, but I doubt significantly.

You're right on one count; we'll just have to agree to disagree on prophylactic salting of fish. I'll never do it and never advocate it...especially for discus.


Mark

[Mzungu]

Just be sure to note that brackish water is around 15 ppT. When you are talking about FW systems having a salinity of a couple hundred ppM, that's quite a big difference. Usually when we add salt to our freshwater aquariums, we're not adding in ppM but in ppT.

[wesleydnunder]

Just be sure to note that brackish water is around 15 ppT. When you are talking about FW systems having a salinity of a couple hundred ppM, that's quite a big difference. Usually when we add salt to our freshwater aquariums, we're not adding in ppM but in ppT.

Acknowledged, MB. I was giving an example of local conditions from one Municipal water report. As you point out, part per thousand, ppT, is a much higher magnitude of salt concentration than part per million, ppM, and raisng the salinity 1 ppT is the same as 1,000 ppM, a concentration that very, very few freshwater fish ever experience in the wild.

Mark

[Mzungu]

I was just making sure that everyone noted the distinction. I know Darbex said most rivers run from 100 to 700 ppm, and I just wanted to make sure it was understood that that's still less than 1 ppt. :)

[Cesar]

It seems like there is alot of different views here, Ive got rift lake cichlids and do add salt to my tanks everytime I do a water change. Look at the trace element formula recipe off of cichlid forum it includes both salt and epsome salt along with baking soda. Again it depends on what kind of fish you are keeping and what they are use to in the wild (if you have WC). It works for me, I dont think Ive done too bad. BTW I use one cup for 100 gallons, tossed into my wetdry.

[wesleydnunder]

It seems like there is alot of different views here, Ive got rift lake cichlids and do add salt to my tanks everytime I do a water change. Look at the trace element formula recipe off of cichlid forum it includes both salt and epsome salt along with baking soda. Again it depends on what kind of fish you are keeping and what they are use to in the wild (if you have WC). It works for me, I dont think Ive done too bad. BTW I use one cup for 100 gallons, tossed into my wetdry.

Earlier I'd mentioned rift lake cichlids. They come from water that has much higher TDS than most fish. Those and estuarine fish come from a biotope having a higher sodium component in their water. Most of the tropicals we keep, however, don't.

Mark

[geoff_tropheus]

I like potato chips and salt on my magaritas!