Should I try to rescue these fish?

[afremont]

Went to the local Petco on Sunday and saw a dead neon blue dwarf gourami in the tank. It's eyes were white; wouldn't that take a while to happen? The other blue gouramis in the tank weren't looking real chipper, but the flames all looked pretty good. Went in yesterday and saw another blue dwarf stuck to the filter and a red laying on its side on the bottom not quite dead yet. There was one blue one in the bottom corner panting and one hanging around the surface taking frequent air from the surface. The panting fish never once went to the surface during the whole time. Now the other flame gouramis aren't looking so hot.

I've done a bunch of reading about Dwarf Gourami Disease and the like, but these fish are dying at a pace that a virus doesn't make sense. It's my understanding that the iridovirus takes a long time (months) to kill the fish, not hours. I suspect either bacterial infections from tankmates feeding on the dead fish or toxic water since gouramis are prone to high nitrite or ammonia poisoning. Given that fish are allowed to rot in the tank, they could cause spikes in ammonia or nitrites.

I'm thinking about going over there and offering them $1 per surviving fish (assuming there are some today) to try and save them. I have a hospital tank ready to go, just needs patients. I was thinking about seeing if they miraculously start to recover just from new water and then starting them on "general cure" or some kind of sulfa drugs to see what happens.

Do you guys think I'd be wasting my time or taking too big a risk on introducing something horrid to my home? I hate to see these fish dying like that. It looks preventable since there are absolutely no visible signs of illness on the fish and they are obviously living in awful conditions since fish are being allowed to die on display. Color, skin, etc all look great, they are just dropping dead. I can't see there gills to determine color, but the fish seem to be hurting for oxygen. I also saw a fish flash a few times on the glass like he was rubbing his gills. Flukes couldn't kill fish this fast, could they?

[mnemenoi]

There could be a gill parasite, virus, bacterial infection, poor water chemistry and its likely many of these all acting in unison combined with the stress of shipping in large groups. Though many of these deaths are avoidable, they are not 'feasable' to larger chain stores. The time, attention, and cost of medication preclude their use and employee instruction. Most of the tanks share filtration and it is terribly complicated to treat in a store like that, thus the proliferation of these issues in home aquariums. Many of the employees in charge are at best hobbyists and try their best, at worst they have never kept fish and have no desire to act proactively. I fear it is simply the nature of that type of store.

As to your question of rescue, it might be possible to save what is left. It depends upon a large amount of if's though. If the manager or employee is willing to cut you a deal on those affected fish (they do have a guarantee, so most by the book employees can not actually do this and would be breaking their rules against selling at risk fish and could possibly lose their job). If the fish could survive yet another stressful netting and move (they already have suppressed immune systems and are on death's door, you might get lucky but I'd expect 75% mortality with even perfect conditions). If you are willing to possibly contaminate whatever tank you house them in (hospital tank is a great idea, but where would they eventually go? Unless you are able to isolate what is affecting them then you are running the risk of possibly infecting whatever tank they eventually end up in). If you are willing or have numerous medications on hand (antibiotics, antivirals, antiparasitics, each cost some money and you might find the necessity of acquiring more then one as you eliminate possibilities. I have seen folk spend $40-$50 on medication, just to have nothing work.) If you don't mind sacrificing your time and energy (your time and effort are wirth something and no matter if they do survive you will never likely get much for them if resale is what you would eventually planned to do).


I wish you luck, whatever your course of action. I know it is painful to look at, but I fear large chain stores have crunched the same numbers I did and came up with it being more effective to do nothing. I wish that were not the case, but sadly it is a fact and one which cause many avid aquarists to avoid frequenting these establishments. Hope that helps at least...

[afremont]

Thanks for the reply, you are a treasure trove of useful information. :-) Being a tinker at heart, I just want to try and "fix" them. I don't mind wasting time and/or money if I gain some experience from it all. I'm thinking that anything learned would make me better prepared to handle my "favored" fish when they get ill. It's not about resale or money, though I might want to give some away if they should happen to get well. Of course I would make it clear where they came from to any potential new owner. My offer to the store would be to take them "as is" with no warranty, hence why I want to pay only $1 each.

I have a flame dwarf that I really like and I'd like to know more about caring for them when they get sick. I would of course keep all my nets etc separate for the hospital tank. I will even obtain a new siphon hose from home depot to use only with them. Thanks again for the input, still looking forward to stomping thru some creeks with you some time.

[mnemenoi]

Glad to help where I can and I'll let you know about going collecting. I have some stuff I'll be looking for if I get my new tank set up and cycling soon. I want to try stocking it with some Gammarus and see if I can maintain a colony before I introduce the residents.

[R_sustaita]

Mnemenoi has giving me amazing info and tips.

[afremont]

Well, I shamed the manager into letting me have them by paying 1/2 price for a red and 1/2 price for a single blue. I brought home 3 blues and 8 flames. I transitioned them to my water in a small bucket by floating their bags in some tank water i put into a bucket ( I have and empty 20 that is good for stealing water from). I then poured them into another small, 1 gallon bucket to which I promptly added some of my tank water to. I gradually added more of my tank water to the 1 gallon bucket until it was full, all the while letting an airstone bubble in the bucket. I gave them a short treatment with some Quick Cure figuring it couldn't hurt in case they have some flukes or something. I realize that wouldn't help if it were ick, but it isn't ick anyway.

I now have them all crammed into the 10 gallon hospital tank for now with no substrate but some cheezy fake plants for cover. Oh, I also gave them some "enriched" brine shrimp when they were in the bucket. Most of them had something to eat, but one of worst didn't seem to want anything. All in all, they seem to have perked up quite a bit with the water change and the shrimp snack. I still have one blue that just sits on the bottom in the corner panting. I'm going to go get some "general cure" or whatever it's called to try on them since I'm sure they have some bacterial issues inside after eating on the dead ones at the store. Thanks again.

[R_sustaita]

good job, keep us updated on them.

[Sea-agg09]

Just for future reference, buying poor fish from less than reputable dealers only puts money in their hands to buy more fish. Even though you got your fish at 1/2 price, the store still made a profit on your purchase. The same principle applies to buying the runts or "rescuing" dogs from puppy mills. If you are already going to be dealing with the management, you should say you were going to buy fish, but after seeing the condition of the fish, you decided not to. It lights a fire under the butts of the managers and hence the employees to step up their game.

[afremont]

Well, I doubt they made a profit since I only paid about sixty cents each for the fish. It only looks like they sold two of the eleven at half price and they'll now have to "pretend" on the inventory that the other nine died. I think I did the right thing still, but I definitely understand where you're coming from. The manager that I got them through was only there temporarily because of the holidays. He runs another, apparently much cleaner store. He was expressing his displeasure about the condition of things and how he was bringing in someone tomorrow to spend eight hours checking out the fish situation at that store. From the looks of things there, I'm sure that the fish receive less than eight hours of care per week normally.

[R_sustaita]

so you got 11 of them? or only 3?

[afremont]

UPDATE: It's a miracle, or it sure looks like it. I started treating the hospital tank with QuickCure since I had seen them flash at the store and their gills were looking bad from what I could manage to see, plus the panting fish. I also dumped in a packet of Maracyn 1 at the advice of the LFS. Even the fish that sat in the corner without moving all afternoon just came out and ate some food. I thought he was a goner for sure, yet even he was out and about and gobbling down flakes. I have the lights down low, but almost all the rest of the fish are being quite active and showing normal behavior. They were all lethargic at the store. If I had to guess, I'd say that water quality was probably what was causing them the most grief. I'll continue treating them for protozoa (QuickCure) and infection (Maricyn 1). Right now, I'm very glad that I went and got them. :-)

[afremont]

I got eleven, three neon blue and eight flame.

[Warlock]

glad it is working out..

but becareful "rescuing" fish.. it could introduce something into your existing tanks that could be disastrous..

[R_sustaita]

Glad to hear they are doing alot better. now you may become addicted to rescuing fish.

[afremont]

Looks like we have a couple of aggressive flames. They were sparring and neither was backing down at all, even doing the kissing gourami thing. Looked like cichlids with the fins all flared at each other. I guess they must be feeling better since they feel well enough to fight. Maybe I should take their plants away?