cichlid aggression, need help

[finfan]

i have a 55 gallong mix cichlid tank with the following inhabitants:

4 yellow labs (1 currently in a separate tank being treated for tattered fins)
4 Melanochromis Cyaneorhabdos (2 removed today and in a bucket for over aggressiveness)
3 red zebras
2 pink convicts (male and female, but not a couple, the male is smaller and so the female does not care for him, the male was battered pretty badly and has recovered nicely after separating, now he is back in the tank)
1 exasperatus (have 6 ~1" fry from her in a separate tank)
1 firemouth (i think he nobody messes with him)

this mix of fish has been together for about 4 months w/o any problems, they have all gotten nice and big and i think are almost adults or in the verge of adulthood, over the last few weeks the aggressiveness of the fish has gotten pretty bad, the cyaneorhabdos and the red zebras are the most aggressive, i had 1 random jewel cichlid, that has been killed from fighting (don't know who did it, one morning he was just beat up badly and did not make it through the day),  one of the labs and one of the pink convicts were beat up (also mentioned above), 2 of the cyaneorhabdos got overly aggressive towards the other two cyaneorhabdos and other fishes (the overly aggressive 2 are in a bucket currently), someone also killed off 1 firemouth about 2 weeks ago, and of course they constantly chase and lunge at each other now a days

i love the cichlids, they are very cool to observe, but i don't like dealing with this over aggressive behavior and worrying about who's going to be the next victim of violence and who i will have to make a new hospital bed, of course i can take back 2 red zebras, and 3 cyaneorhabdos to a petco/petsmart, they will take the fish and not give me anything in return, these are very healthy and nice fish and i would love to get store credit if any of the lfs does that

(1) Do you guys know of any lfs that will give store credit?  also
(2) What is the best solution or mix of fish in my circumstance?

please help asap

[Zulaab]

Re: cichlid aggression, need help

Finfan -- I know you love your fish when you are worried about the health of them :)
I have never been an advocate for blending South American's, Tanganyika's and Malawi fish together.  I have found they simply in the end do not have the same living style and some fish can be blended, some just do not handle it well and will end up being each others life long enemies and will tear everyone else up.

[finfan]

Re: cichlid aggression, need help

well, they are all africans, the only SA's are the two convicts and the 1 firemouth, nobody messes with the firemouth at all and he does not seem to bother anyone either, the two convicts usually don't fight either, the larger convict just beats up the smaller one, the aggression is usually between the africans, i only have 13 fish in this 55 gallon and still the africans are at each others throat, which one's from my mix should i take out to make this work? i was thinking, maybe take out all but one red zebra and one cyaneorhabdos, and then leave everyone else?

[imagirlgeek]

Re: cichlid aggression, need help

Can you tell if they are fighting over territory?  This is a problem I had.  When I first got started, I had a handful of cichlids in a 55 gallon.  One bumblebee cichlid was terrorizing all of them.  A guy at a LFS suggested overcrowding them so that there was less chance of the bumblebee picking on 1 or 2 of the fish.  This worked for me, however you run into problems later on when they all get large and you've outgrown the 55.  

Have you tried rearranging the rocks?  What is your rockwork like right now?  Caves and nooks for the fish who need them?  You might try tall plants to break the line of sight as well.  

Can you tell who is doing the majority of the fighting?

[Fire_chair]

Re: cichlid aggression, need help

I would rearrange the tank and then add 2-3 more red zebras and Cyaneorhabdos.

[Zulaab]

Re: cichlid aggression, need help

Africans no matter what are aggressive.  I have had the same problem as you have, and then someone told me... fill the tank up with more fish.. ie get the aggression to be given out to multiple fish and therefore not much to one single fish.  I have a 3ft 58g tank and there aggression is kept in check because there are more than 30 fish in the tank.  They get along great and there is always fighting going on, but if I kept less then there would be more fighting from the alpha boys and girls on all the others.  My two other African tanks there are less and more aggression in it.  My Electric Blues go after all the fish in the tank no matter who they are, but as soon as that fish hides for a minute they are after someone else.   Its an on going issue.
I dont seem to have to many problems.  When the number got to be to small then I had problems.
Now I did remove my Hongi (sold them to a friend who made a Hongi only tank and he is now looking for a few more females to go in it) and that lowered the aggression a lot.  If I ever have hongi again, I am going to make sure that they have a long tank rather than tall tank to swim in because they will continue to chase until the other fish is ready to die.  (not a fun site to look at) -- my friend is holding the hongi now in a tank that is (yes I am not kidding) 65% rock work.  There is almost no open swimming room at all.  The hongi no longer fight.   They keep themselves to the rocks and hides in there.  Now you see one fish or two fish at the time come out for a few seconds but else they just sit in their hole and waits for an opportunity to breed or eat to come by.

Here is a quick list of what I see each fish needs.

Yellow Labs -- Territorial -- rock work with lots of small and big openings for them to run in and out of.  They are barely aggressive to themselves less other fish species.  I have 9 in my tank with 4-5 males and 4-5 females.  They all look fine.  
Melanochromis Cyaneorhabdos -- not territorial -- but males do NOT tolerate each other. (massive amounts of fighting will occur if you do)  Keep only one male at time in your tank (when you get a 125 6ft+ tank then you can prolly keep 2 or 3 males.. but that would be about the max from what I am reading.  They like the rocks and swim along the rock work but does claim an area as theirs.. they just fight in the open water for the right to breed with females.
3 red zebras -- Territorial --  Again like your cyaneorhabdos, you may want to keep one male and multiple females.  Males are usually blue while the females is usually orange to red colors.  Some variants of them males look red but the blue is the most common male color.
Convicts.. -- territorial -- lots of plants and roots and caves (bigger than what your mbuna's want)
Firemouth -- same as above -- you might want to get a few more of them if you intend to keep mixing your cichilds.

If you have space and want to build a second tank I would recommend getting yourself a 75 or something like that, a 75g would be close to the same size as the 55 just 6 more inches deeper, because you need so much more rock work for mbuna's they are much better at keeping Africans happy in.  Then move the Africans into that and make sure that you only keep on male Cyaneorhabdos or no more than 2 in that size tank.

If you cannot get a second tank then remove any extra male Zebra and Cyanorhabdos (Keep the nicest looking one in there) and get some more females in there.. they will fight less with females than other males for territory.  You can keep the convicts in there too and the firemouth, again I would attempt to make a pair of firemouth's by getting either a female or male which ever you are missing and add to the tank.

Here is what you want to end up with in the tank, if you dont want to split fish up.

4-6 Yellow Labs (more than 1 male is ok try to get 2 males 4 females)
4 Melanochromis Cyaneorhabdos (1 male and 1 male ONLY-- as many females you want to put in there..  Get 3-4)
4 red zebras -- Territorial --  Again like your cyaneorhabdos, you may want to keep one male and multiple females.  
2 Convicts.. -- Keep the pair, they will eventually pair up..  If you want it to go a little quicker..  split them apart for two to three weeks.. power feed the smaller male while he is in a small hospital tank, then return him back to your community tank..  This should make her attracted him.
2 Firemouths

These are my thoughts on your tank setup.

[finfan]

Re: cichlid aggression, need help

guys thanks for the great advice, zu thanks for the specific advice, i am not sure i can do another tank, but i will try to leave one of the males (none of my zebras are blue, but i am thinking they are male just from all the aggression and the eggspots), the cyaneorhabdos might be all males, so i need to get rid of 3 of them, getting the male convict fat by himself is a great idea, i will do that i think

[Zulaab]

Re: cichlid aggression, need help

Sit down and watch your fish for about 10-15 minutes and by then you should be able to see if any of your africans are females.  You will notice a female will only fight long enough to push a fish away from her.  She will not relentlessly run a fish down until its hiding or get nipped.  A female african for the most part will only push a fish out of an area and nothing else.  Males on the other hand will push a fish all the way around the tank until it catches it.
If none of the zebra's are blue you may have all females.. its all possible.. egg spots are not always a give away as some species will have egg spots being either male or female.   See picture of Female Zebra holding.  You will need to change the picture to the female holding picture.  Note all the egg spots she has.
Melanochromis Cyaneorhabdos are monomorphic which means from an outward perspective they are identical.  Look for brighter colors on the dominant male.  The one with the brightest colors will most likely be the male and the one that chases the males to death.  He will most like push females, but will not chase them more than 1/2 a tank around.