The Great Hybrid (Flowerhorn) Debate

[marauder_77868]

to fit what they need/want in that animal.

The key is in your words...THAT animal. They are typically breeding for selective traits within a single species. Flowerhorns cross that line....at least for me anyway.

whatever the case, its up to the owners to determine if the "new" animal is right for them.

Exactly correct...which is why my original post, although multi-purposed, was designed to be educational. Because I know that there is a lot of mis-information out there, as Delock mentioned previously.

[finfan]

lets take this to a new level... what would happen if we start... line breeding or hybridizing people to get the desired "features" in us...

i know many of you will think i'm crazy to say such a thing, but i think if we stop thinking about consequences of our choices... one day this might not be beyond the realm of possibility

[jeebus]

The key is in your words...THAT animal. They are typically breeding for selective traits within a single species. Flowerhorns cross that line....at least for me anyway.

How so? Its not like turtles and fish were cross-bred. The flowerhorn is not some mutant that is half fish and half non-fish. Its 100% fish, with shared genes of its predecessors - other fish. The flowerhorn is to fish crossbreeding what the Bulldog is dog crossbreeding.

EVERYTHING is cross-bred now. From plants to humans. Nothing is "pure". Look at my daughter. She's a Caucasian/Asian crossbreed. Nothing weird, mutant, or deformed in her. Next time you take a bite out of your Big Mac & throwback your catsup ladened french-fries remember that you'll be eating cross-bred cattle, cross-bred potatoes, and cross-bred tomatoes. Everything is crossbred.

Its when we start focusing on "purity" we risk ending up like a certain 1930's or 1970's regime.

lets take this to a new level... what would happen if we start... line breeding or hybridizing people to get the desired "features" in us...

i know many of you will think i'm crazy to say such a thing, but i think if we stop thinking about consequences of our choices... one day this might not be beyond the realm of possibility

Its already here. Doctors are experimenting with gene therapy to alter your child's physical appearance before the mother is impregnated. Gattaca has arrived.

[finfan]

Look at my daughter. She's a Caucasian/Asian crossbreed.

.....Its already here. Doctors are experimenting with gene therapy to alter your child's physical appearance before the mother is impregnated.

i wouldn't say caucasian/asian is a crossbreed... we are all humans

and yes its sad that doctor's and more importantly parents are doing that

[marauder_77868]

The flowerhorn is to fish crossbreeding what the Bulldog is dog crossbreeding.

This isnt true. Flowerhorns are made up of two (or more) different SPECIES. All dogs, whether Chihuahua or Mastiff, are the same SPECIES. The Flowerhorn scenario would be comparable to breeding the Bulldog to a Red Fox, two different species, but both within the Canidae family, just as all the cichlid species are within the Cichlidae family.

Look at my daughter. She's a Caucasian/Asian crossbreed. Nothing weird, mutant, or deformed in her.

That's true...but the point is that she has two HUMAN parents. Asian and Caucasian are not two different species. You need to make the distinction between crossbred and hybridized. A hybrid is formed from two (or more) different species. The hamburger is made of only one species, the cow (please don't make me look up the scientific name for the cow). This isn't about semantics. THere are fundamental differences with the examples you are using and what I'm talking about.

[Kiovo]

I think Jeebus was refering to things being "pure" and "not pure". There are several animals that are hybridized, wolves and dogs, horses and donkeys...and whether you agree with it or not, they are here, and they're probably here to stay. I'm not one to shun something just because it's different. It's still a living creature that deserves the same care and feels the same pain as any other living thing.

[Kiovo]

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=different-dog-breeds-same-species

But among dogs, which are well known for their hybrid (or mongrel) varieties, different breeds can mate and have viable offspring, so they are all found under the umbrella of a single species, Canis familiaris.

Humans are the ones that determine what to label each "species" and whether they are the same species or different.

[marauder_77868]

The definition of a species is not just can they have viable offspring, but also, given the natural situation (in the wild) will they interbreed?

[katytropheus]

As mentioned earlier on dogs, have you seen the Westminister Dog Show recently on the variations of breeds? Or cats on two gorgeous breeds, Bengal = Asian Leopard Cat and domestic and my favorite at about 35-40 pounds, Savannah = African Serval and domestic. Sort of like the flowerhorn in pricing, relatively speaking. F-1 Savannah, try about $3-4K. You walk them just like a dog, of course they can be a handful.

[jeebus]

The definition of a species is not just can they have viable offspring, but also, given the natural situation (in the wild) will they interbreed?

If they are being released into the local waterways and are taking over the local biotope by reproducing, then I would believe they would fit your criteria for what makes a species.

[marauder_77868]

I had brought up education and conservation as issues I thought imprtant to this debate. We're not trying to conserve the wild environment of the Persian or the French Bulldog. That's why I couched things in the terms that I did. All the stuff about dogs and cates is very interesting, but I'm not sure it's relative to the Flowerhorn discussion

[marauder_77868]

then I would believe they would fit your criteria for what makes a species.

Let me clarify...fish that would interbreed in the wild, which in someone's tank at the house is not. Please tell me where I can find Flowerhorns in their natural habitat. I LOVE working with wild caught fish. While we're at it, I'm also looking for the origin point of Cichlasoma sp "Heart Tattoo"

[jeebus]

Tattooed/mutilated fish are not the same as a crossbred hybrid.

Per reports all over the web, flowerhorns are being released into the local waterways in southeast Asia (because its bad luck to kill them) and they are flourishing. I would consider that to be their wild since they have no wild from which they came.

The discussion of other flora & fauna keep getting introduced because they are examples that in nature, there has been cross-breeding - spontaneous or induced.

[marauder_77868]

I would consider that to be their wild since they have no wild from which they came.

You're kidding, right? Does that mean any fish that I throw in the lake that survives is now in its natural habitat? The Flowerhorn has no natural habitat.

The discussion of other flora & fauna keep getting introduced because they are examples that in nature, there has been cross-breeding - spontaneous or induced.

Let me explain further...I'm talking about intentional, man-made hybrids. That's not the case with dogs or cows. The cats I don't know enought about. I'm talking about hybrids that are produced on someone's fish farm or in someone's basement.

[jeebus]

You're kidding, right? Does that mean any fish that I throw in the lake that survives is now in its natural habitat? The Flowerhorn has no natural habitat.

If you introduce something to a new environment and it adapts to that environment and flourishes by reproducing and thriving - then that is its new natural habitat.

Fire ants are a great example. They are not native to North America, but guess what EVERYONE has in their yard? Fire ants. This has become their natural habitat. The fact that they are not "hybrids" has nothing to do with this point. I specifically answering your quoted question above.

Let me explain further...I'm talking about intentional, man-made hybrids. That's not the case with dogs or cows. The cats I don't know enought about. I'm talking about hybrids that are produced on someone's fish farm or in someone's basement.

Many different breeds of cats & dogs were created through man-made breeding techniques beginning with Kings and Pharaohs wanting the best of the best for themselves.

Even further, plants have been inter-species cross-bred so that they will grow bigger, produce more fruit, and become more resistant to harsh climate changes, predators, and pestilence.

To think that now that its happening in the fish hobby world that its a sin or crime against nature is preposterous. The precedence has be set in all other areas of mother-nature.