Non-CO2 Planting Basics For A First Timer..

[Mzungu]

Just a quick question for ya - what are your plans for this tank? Are you wanting to do a heavily planted, demanding tank? Or are you just looking to have a few plants here and there?

I'm asking because you have bought 3 pretty darn undemanding plants. I have grown all three successfully with no additional ferts or CO2. (Sorry if this sounds like blasphemy!!) Now, they might not have been as bold and lush as their potential fertilized counterparts, but they still grew. :)

Was the sag the really crazy-long one that I saw at the auction? Like, 5 feet long? I have never in my life seen dwarf sag that tall, so (although this seems contrary to my experience) without all the TLC wesleydnunder gave it might not grow that tall.

Like Kevin said, though, just wait a little while and your plants will come back. They've made a pretty drastic move, and just have to settle in, so to speak. :)

[Kiovo]

we just wanted to add a few plans to add color to our tank. nothing demanding or hard since we want the main focus to be the discus! the discus look awesome with the plants, it has bought out their colors big time!

I think the plants look fine to me, not sure what Jeebus is complaining about! Also our sterbai cats like to nibble on them so that might be a problem

[jeebus]

Okay... here's a picture. I should have posted it first lol.. Sorry!



This is what it look like without the plants:



So Kim is right, they're probably fine. However, they are turning "less green", so I don't want them to die on me then come ask for help when its too late. Also, like Kim was saying, it seems like the Sterbais are chewing the cork-screw Vals right off of their root base.

Okay, my lighting is 2x 54 Watt 12000k T6 bulbs and my substrate is Leslie's brand PFS.

My fish-load is what you see in the picture: 9 Tiger Turquoise Discus, 10 Sterbai Cory Cats, 10 Rummy Nose Tetras, 4 Nerite Snails, and 5 various sized Plecos (Gold Nugget, Galaxy, ABN, and Green Phantom).

As stated above, when I did a water change and added the plants, I did the Seachem recommended dosing for both the Flourish and Excel.

Okay, fire away everyone!

[kwc1974]

I love this set-up, I personally would let the vals go crasy all along the back all the way to the sides. Discus really like the grass like plants. And if you feel the need go with some dwarf sag or even some tenellus in the front (not too much just enough to transition tall plants to sand) and leave a lot of sand in the front as well.

I would not worry about the corys too much, once the vals settle in the corys won't be able to keep up.

Get some root tabs for the substrate and just insert them directly under the plants....mabe a few where you want the plants to go as well. I like the ADA Multi bottom long. You can place them in sideways to get more coverage.

Ignore my comment about increasing the Excel unless you want explosive growth. Just dose as needed per the Seachem instructions.

Dose everything else as needed, but for now just let the plants settle into the new tank. The only thing I would add is the ADA Multi Bottom long and the ADA Green Gain as mention above.

[wesleydnunder]

1200K color temp is way low on the spectrum, and not going to do much for your plants at all. I'd get at least 5000K. My personal preference is 6700K, but between 5500K and 8000K works well. You have just over 100W of light on a tall tank. I'm not sure that's gonna be sufficient for you. 1.5 to 2 WPG would be my target for that tank, and would be considered low light for its height.

Mary Beth is right about the plants. They will grow in a variety of conditions, each with a different result in plant growth. I have the sag in low light tanks where it's barely 3" tall.

Seachem Fluorish is a high-dollar trace or micro supplement. Your plants will need macros as well. Macros are nitrate, phosphorus and potassium. Your filter will provide some nitrate, possibly enough. Your water may be providing the needed phosphates already...mine has 2 ppm phosphate out of the tap. If all you need to add is potassium, you can buy potassium chloride at the grocery store. It's called Nosalt. I personally steer clear of the ADA ferts because of expense. There are much cheaper ways to accomplish the same results. I use an all-in-one fert called PMDD pre-mix. It contains macros and micros and costs 10 dollars a pound. A pound would probably last you a year.

Mark

[Mzungu]

Wow! Those plants look great, and really make the tank "pop" without taking away from the discus. :)

My only remaining question is: got any more of those strip lights laying around? Is it a single-tube or double-tube strip that you're using? Looking at Kiovo's signature, I'm assuming this is the 90g discus tank... So with about 100 watts you might want to up the lighting. Not too much, but a little. Too much just makes the plants need more nutrients, in a nutshell. And algae can have the upper hand pretty quickly. But if you keep it low-light, you shouldn't have too demanding of a tank.

:) Looks great.

[jeebus]

Well, until we can get a stronger light, could we just run it longer? We run it 12 hours a day now, and its a double fixture. 54 watts x2 @ 12k. I know a lower k rating would probably be better for plants too, huh?

[Mzungu]

Forgot to add, I have never had cories nibble on plants. They may be exploring the new furniture in the place, may be cleaning leaves to spawn (dunno, it's possible) or could be grubbing on some little critters that like to live around plants. Of course, you could just have cories who like to nibble on plants...!

Mark, maybe he meant 12,000K, not 1,200K? It looks more like 12,000K to me.

[kwc1974]

I honostly thought the 1200K color temp was a typo, but yes this should be increased. The wattage is arguable, Vals and Sags are going to grow up to the light which may be desireable as it will promote hight growth which in this tank would be desired. But yse more light can not hurt, in fact it would help.

Seachem Flourish is high-dollar, but easy to get and simplified. I personally do not use ADA except for the Green gain and Multi bottom long as I have not found good replacements for them, and for what the two do they are reasonably priced. The other ADA fertilizer product line.....well let's just say I don't use them. If you have not used the two I am suggesting you might want to give them a try.

You are right about the PMDD pre-mix, I do not use it as I have had a bad experance with it.

As far as brands go, it is a use what you like deal.

[wesleydnunder]

Forgot to add, I have never had cories nibble on plants. They may be exploring the new furniture in the place, may be cleaning leaves to spawn (dunno, it's possible) or could be grubbing on some little critters that like to live around plants. Of course, you could just have cories who like to nibble on plants...!

Mark, maybe he meant 12,000K, not 1,200K? It looks more like 12,000K to me.

OK, DUH! I wondered where he'd get 1,200K lamps...lol. Jeebus, I'd still try to find lamps with a color temp between 5500K and 8,000K.

kwc,
less light will not make sag grow taller like a stem plant. It stays very short. I've been growing this particular bunch of sag for about ten years now.

Mark

[kwc1974]

Well, until we can get a stronger light, could we just run it longer? We run it 12 hours a day now, and its a double fixture. 54 watts x2 @ 12k. I know a lower k rating would probably be better for plants too, huh?

Yea, a typo

with what you have you are at 1.2 watts per gallon (54wx2 on a 90 gallon) You are on the very low side and adding light can do nothing but help, but I think you would be fine until ou can add a little more lighting. Don't increae the photo-period.

[Mzungu]

Depends on the spectrum, really. What brand of T6 lights do you have in there?

The longer photoperiod won't really help in that sense. I'd keep it on 12 hours or less. Even though all my tanks have plants in them, it ultimately comes down to the fish, and I like them to have their down time. :)

If you can, try to find another fixture like the one you already have on there, or try to find a single-tube fixture. Even normal fluorescents (T8s, T12s, etc)will do. I'll PM you in a little bit with a suggestion I have.

[Mzungu]

Mark, BTW, that sag is AMAZING. I, like Kevin, have had the exact opposite experience with sag that I've had - it always grew much shorter with more light. You have some kind of crazy, nuclear-ooze-mutant sag. My jaw dropped when I saw it at the auction. Beautiful plant you had there.

[kwc1974]

kwc,
less light will not make sag grow taller like a stem plant. It stays very short. I've been growing this particular bunch of sag for about ten years now.

Mark

Mark you are probably right about sagittaria. If this was originally grown in your tank then I trust you know how it has been growing.
My assumption was that it is Sag subulata, the pic shown look about 12" tall. Sag subulata should have a 16-18" growth range. and of course more or less light can equate to growth height. Sag does have a height cap on it. Was not implying it to be endless like stems.

The same goes for Vals as well. In San Marcos, the Val. Americans is really short. Like only 12" tall, but that is due to the intense light it receives. In tank I have had it grow 30" long blades.

[jeebus]

WOW. To all three of you, THANK YOU! for the expert advice.

So I just need to be patient and let the plants settle. That's good. I was just worried that I would kill them before I knew to get help.

So it looks like I need to:

1. Switch bulbs until I can get a better (read: higher wattage) fixture and not change my photo-period.

2. Continue using the Seachem Flourish Excel as recommended for my carbon supplement.

3. Continue using the Seachem Flourish as my MICRO, and add "Nosalt" (at what amount/frequency??) to complete my MACRO (assuming I have the nitrates and phosphate in the tank/filters/tap-water).

or.. I can switch to the all-in-one fert called PMDD pre-mix that will supply my micro/macro.

4. Insert some root tabs under the plants. I'm thinking that they are similar to "tree-spikes", yes? I know Brian recommended a certain brand, and I can also use the ADA Multi-Bottom Long.


Okay.. Only thing I didn't see explained is the ADA Green Gain. What is it exactly?

And, how the heck do you people know all this stuff!? lol..