Did I do a Bad Thing? Re:Substrate

[Mike B]

Here is my question, I just recently pulled my 14G down and changed the substrate to set the tank up for live plants. Originaly it had plain PFS as substrate and I didn't think that much would grow in plain sand. A couple of weeks ago I picked up a sack of regular organic potting soil at walmart and my starting plan was a layer of potting soil covered with sand to lock in the mud and crud. Last weekend while shopping at the local King Dollar I found 10lb. sacks of "Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil" for a buck each so I picked one up and then set the tank up with a layer of aprox. 1/2" organic potting soil then a 1/2" layer aquatic plant soil topped off with about 3/4" wet PFS.
Anybody see any problems with this setup?
Was the layer of organic potting soil a mistake?
What could I have done differently or better?
Thanks
Mike B

[Complexity]

While it is sometimes frowned upon to send people to other forums, I believe that the point of any forum is to help people as best as possible. And if that help is better found elsewhere, then the best thing I can do is offer that suggestion. That ensures that everyone gets the best help possible when they come here.

That being said, your question is rather specific. I do not know the answer as I do not use potting soil in my tanks. However, I know others have done it with success. I think you will find the information you need here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/

and

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/

Notice the stickies at the top of those forums. Running searches for your plant soil can also help.

The only thing I can think of is that the process of planting (and uprooting plants) will mix the layers. Whatever has the smaller grain size and/or is heavier will settle to the bottom – which is most likely going to be the sand. Plan ahead for how the substrate will handle the constant planting and uprooting process of a planted tank. Pulling up plants is a very common process. The plants grow too large (this happens very fast) so instead of just cutting off the tops, it's common to pull the entire plant up, cut the tops off and replant the tops. The bottoms get leggy so they are discarded. Also, the tops give a more pleasing look than a cut off plant. So you will be constantly pulling plants up and replanting. This will stir up whatever layers you put in the tank.

Also consider the process of vacuuming the substrate. While it is never advisable to plunge the tube into the substrate of a planted tank, sometimes it happens. If the lower layer is lighter weight than the top level, the vacuum will pull that lower level up, further mixing the layers.

Lastly, be careful of additives put in the soil, such as fertilizers. They may not be fish friendly. Unless you have confirmed the safety of the soil with someone who has used it before, always add one fish as a test to be sure it's not toxic. If that fish survives, add more fish slowly until you can trust that the soil is safe.

People have used soil for planted tanks with excellent success. It takes more work, but it is possible. The best thing I can suggest is that you spend time reading up on the process before going any further. Then you will be better able to prevent potential long term mistakes that end up costing you more than you saved with the dollar store soil. Be sure to keep us posted on your progress. Take lots of pictures!

[Darbex]

I agree with Complexity. As long as the soil doesnt have harmful fertz then you should be fine, but the substrate will be come a mess as pointed out above as the soil and sand shift it will begin to mix and eventually the sand will settle at the bottom and it wont give it the effect that I think you anticipated.

[wesleydnunder]

While it is sometimes frowned upon to send people to other forums, I believe that the point of any forum is to help people as best as possible. And if that help is better found elsewhere, then the best thing I can do is offer that suggestion. That ensures that everyone gets the best help possible when they come here.

That being said, your question is rather specific. I do not know the answer as I do not use potting soil in my tanks. However, I know others have done it with success. I think you will find the information you need here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/

and

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/

Notice the stickies at the top of those forums. Running searches for your plant soil can also help.

The only thing I can think of is that the process of planting (and uprooting plants) will mix the layers. Whatever has the smaller grain size and/or is heavier will settle to the bottom – which is most likely going to be the sand. Plan ahead for how the substrate will handle the constant planting and uprooting process of a planted tank. Pulling up plants is a very common process. The plants grow too large (this happens very fast) so instead of just cutting off the tops, it's common to pull the entire plant up, cut the tops off and replant the tops. The bottoms get leggy so they are discarded. Also, the tops give a more pleasing look than a cut off plant. So you will be constantly pulling plants up and replanting. This will stir up whatever layers you put in the tank.

Also consider the process of vacuuming the substrate. While it is never advisable to plunge the tube into the substrate of a planted tank, sometimes it happens. If the lower layer is lighter weight than the top level, the vacuum will pull that lower level up, further mixing the layers.

Lastly, be careful of additives put in the soil, such as fertilizers. They may not be fish friendly. Unless you have confirmed the safety of the soil with someone who has used it before, always add one fish as a test to be sure it's not toxic. If that fish survives, add more fish slowly until you can trust that the soil is safe.

People have used soil for planted tanks with excellent success. It takes more work, but it is possible. The best thing I can suggest is that you spend time reading up on the process before going any further. Then you will be better able to prevent potential long term mistakes that end up costing you more than you saved with the dollar store soil. Be sure to keep us posted on your progress. Take lots of pictures!

+1

Mark

[Kittysnax]

I agree with complexity 100% TPT is an awesome database for planted tank help. (I use it for my dumb plant questions I cant find answers to)

[rage]

I tried to use potting soil before. It was a mess. The water did not get clear for weeks and everytime you disturbed the soil, ie. to put in a plant, it would become cloudy for days. I don't think you want to use it.

[Mike B]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback, this is my first planted tank and I still have a lot to learn. One thing that I had not considered was taking out and adding plants once the tank was running, was planning on using this tank as a plant nursery and just trimming and transplanting any overgrowth to my other tanks. My reasoning for layering the substrate the way I did was to use the potting soil for the nutirents, the aquatic plant soil to absorb the nutirents that leach out of the potting soil and to give the roots something to grab onto and the sand to hold it all down and cover it up. Would I have been better off just mixing all three together?
Complexity thank you for the very informative links, I found them very helpfull and will be spending a lot of time on those sites studying and trying to learn.
Thanks Again
Mike B

[Complexity]

No, I would not mix them. The sand adds absolutely nothing. It's like putting pellets of concrete in your flowerbeds outside. There is no point to it other than being cheap, but cheap is actually just that sometimes.

As far as nutrients for the plants, you'd be far better off using dry ferts. There are 3-4 dry ferts involved, each sold in powder form by the pound. A pound has lasted me over a year (see sig for info on my tanks). They run about $3 - $5 each pound, depending on where you get them. That's all you need.

Certain aquatic plants grow really fast. And if you give them good lighting, ferts and CO2, they grow extremely fast. Check out the for sale sections in those forums for an idea. So you can grow the plants in one tank, trim them for plants in your other tanks, and before you know it, you'll have plants growing out your ears! Even tanks with medium lighting, no ferts and no added CO2 can grow at a fairly good rate (again, depending on the plant in question -- some will die in that environment).

Right now, I have some compact hygro in my 90g tank with just sand. No ferts, no CO2, and only moderate (but high quality) lighting. They're growing very nicely. Hygro is known for growing fast and is a good choice in lower-tech situations.

How about we start at the beginning. What do you want to achieve? Do you want a planted tank like the one pictured in my sig line? Or do you want one more like what I have in my 90g where I have just a few accent plants? Do you want to sell plants to recoup your expenses? What kind of budget do you want to work with?

If you have pictures of tanks that look something like what you have in mind, post them or post links to them. I might be able to point you in the right direction. Just remember that there are as many differences in aquatic plants and planting methods as there are in regular gardening. If you want a rose garden, it's best to know that up front and work towards that goal. If you want a row of holly trees instead, everything will be different. Knowing the final goal will help direct which way to get there.

[Mike B]

The appearence of the tank is not super important to me, my primary goal is to try to setup as close as possible a compleat eco-cycle in my tanks. I will admit it, I am lazy and am trying to make my tanks as low maintance as possible. At the present time I don't intend to go the high tech route with co2 injection and high wattage lighting, currently running full spectrum fluorescent lighting at about 1.5-2 watts per gallon on each tank. For now the tank has some java moss and I think an anubis and a rotella that I got from armthehomeless about a week and a half ago

BTW Complexity the tank pictured in your sig line is very impressive and a lot more than I am willing to attempt with my limited knowledge anytime soon, first I must cure my brown thumb on a couple of easy/cheap/low tech setups first.

Thanks Again
Mike B

[smk]

i have used organic potting soil in my tanks for years everyone is correct in saying that if you will be constantly uprooting plants it will be a mess but if you are content with trimming it works great if interested there is a good article about it in TFH nov 09 pg40
scott

[Complexity]

The appearence of the tank is not super important to me, my primary goal is to try to setup as close as possible a compleat eco-cycle in my tanks. I will admit it, I am lazy and am trying to make my tanks as low maintance as possible. At the present time I don't intend to go the high tech route with co2 injection and high wattage lighting, currently running full spectrum fluorescent lighting at about 1.5-2 watts per gallon on each tank. For now the tank has some java moss and I think an anubis and a rotella that I got from armthehomeless about a week and a half ago

If appearance isn't important to you then you may prefer to cut off the tops of the plants, leaving the bottoms in place. Some plants handle this well while others do not (it will partially depend on how "woody" the bottom stems become before trimming). However, you'll still need to uproot and replant a fair amount of time.

For the type of tank you are wanting, dry ferts are not for you. It requires daily fertilizing. Granted, all that means is taking measuring spoons, scooping up the ferts, and dumping it into the tank, but it's still something you have to keep up with which doesn't seem to fit with your goals.

I think you will find the best help for what you want in the forums I posted above. You're wanting a very specific type of tank that's a little off the beaten pathway. Others have done it so I don't want to discourage you, but I do think it's best you spend time upfront learning about the process before actually doing anything or you will find yourself spending more time and money on the tank than you want.

BTW Complexity the tank pictured in your sig line is very impressive and a lot more than I am willing to attempt with my limited knowledge anytime soon, first I must cure my brown thumb on a couple of easy/cheap/low tech setups first.

Thanks for the nice compliment. As far as your brown thumb, keep in mind that you're only as good as your tools allow. High tech tanks are actually easier in many respects. Consider this analogy. Two people want to build a fish stand. One person has all kinds of power tools, a power saw, levels, clamps, everything you can think of. How much effort will he need to put into the project and what might his success rate be? Compare that to the second person who only has 1 hand saw and 1 hammer, no level, no clamps, no power tools, nothing. Not even a basic measuring tape. How much effort will that person have to put into the project and what are the odds of his success?

The point being is that tools can help you gain more success with less effort. In my case, the tank in my sig simply grew that way. I got the right tools for the tank, stuck plants in, and presto. No green thumb needed. Just good tools.