Substrates

[Ellen]

I think I'm going to try plants in the near future. When I move (in exactly one month *yay*) I want to go ahead and put in something better than just gravel for the plants. I have been trying to find people's secret recipes for great substrate, but the only thing I am finding is Eco-complete. I don't want to pay an arm and a leg for dirt, so I'm looking for more unusual routes people have taken and had success with. I'm seriously considering getting SoilMaster (baseball field dirt) because I know some people do use it and you can get a 50# bag for under $20. I was wondering if anybody has gone the SoilMaster route or any other more cost-effective way than buying fish store substrate. I was thinking about something like potting soil or something like that you could get at Lowes or Home Depot. I don't want to get anything that might have an additive that could hurt my fish, but there has to be something I'm missing here.

Thanks for the time,
Ellen

Forget to add: I don't want anything that raises pH, lowering might be ok, depending on how stable it is.

[SCOTT]

Re: Substrates

If you dont mind lowering the PH you might want to look at peat moss as an underlay. Peat is extremely high in nutrients, but it will lower your ph. You can offset this by adding a small ammount of baking soda to the water which will serve 2 purposes, 1 it will increase the ph, 2 it will give you a better buffer and therefore more stable water. If your DH and KH are low, then your ph will swing wildly, by adding the baking soda you increase both the DH and the KH making for a more inherently stable buffer.

[guppymax]

Re: Substrates

Have you talked with these people?:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/nature-aquarium-society-of-houston/

max

[Ellen]

Re: Substrates

Thanks for the advice!

Scott, I get so confused when trying to figure out the GH and KH and pH! I don't know what is considered high or low for GH and KH. I'd really like to have much lower pH than what comes out here, (I was seriously considering getting a barrel and making my own peat-y water when I have enough room.) I don't really know what makes the GH and KH when they don't list it as GH and KH in the water report... (which is at http://www.cstx.gov/docs/water_report.pdf if somebody who knows about this kind of thing wants to tell me about my water.) I really don't know what to do to change it, I've always been the kind to just let my fish get used to the water conditions and then keep them as stable as possible. I don't mind the tea-color peat produces, but I don't want to use it and have wild pH swings. I guess thats where the buffer comes in, like I said...Greek to me! AND I really really do not like to use more chemicals than are absolutely necessary, in fact I only use AmQuel and wish I didn't even have to use that...

Max, thanks! That is just the kind of site I was looking for!

Thanks again!
Ellen

[PhishPhreek]

Re: Substrates

The water we get here from the tap is surface water with a very high mineral content  (200) and high pH, which is great for east (rift lake) africans but not conducive to breeding the rain forest fishes from South America, West Africa and Aisa.   They come from soft acid water.
(rainwater and rotting leaves)

[Ellen]

Re: Substrates

Is the stuff we get up here considered surface water also? Its from approx. 3000ft deep wells. (I told you, I don't know anything about this!) I know the water here is considered soft (which is why you can't ever get all the soap off when you wash your hands), but I don't understand the KH and GH's role in the water quality. I don't know what would happen say if I took some water, put some peat in it and left it. Would it drop pH like crazy for say 2-3 days and then rebound or would it just sit there low. If I knew what it would do, or if somebody put this all into laymans terms for me, then I think I could handle it. Say if your GH and KH are this and you add this, your pH will drop and be stable for X amount of time, but if you GH and KH are this then X will happen. I haven't really worried about the pH etc. in the past because my angels certainly aren't wild-caught. I do know that when picking the substrate (original topic) anything that works with my water chemistry to lower the pH would be appreciated, but not if its going to let the pH crawl back up or, even worse, fluctuate all over the place.

Thanks for all the help,
Ellen

[SCOTT]

Re: Substrates

Ok, I know where you are coming from on this one. When I first started running black water tanks this was a big concern of mine as well. I got all caught up in the chemicals and what they were supposed to do. What I found is, avoid the chemicals no matter what else you do. The store bought chemicals don't have the long term ability to hold your water at the parameters that they promise on the labels. Invariably, with the mineral content in Houston water, even well water from the area, your ph will climb back to the 8.0 range. If you use a natural compound, like peat, you don't have to worry about adding the chermicals because the compound will continuously release them for you. The balance that is achieved on your ph will be determined by how much peat for example, you add vs. how hard your water is. The more peat you add, the more it will influence the ph. The hardness of your water is its true buffering ability, that is how stable your water is when you are making changes to its ph. You can increase your waters buffering ability by using baking soda, kalkwasser, lime, calcium, and coral. All of these share the same basic component which is a form of calcium in one form or another. The more disolved mineral, the harder the water, the more buffering capacity it has. Hard water can still be acidic, the 2 have nothing to do with each other, and the reverse is true, soft water can be alkaline. More often than not tho alkaline water will be hard, and soft water will be acidic, due to the naturally occuring buffering that goes with the way the water would be found. Now you are really confused arent you?

[Ellen]

Re: Substrates

OK, I thought the water up here in College Station filtered down through tons of limestone? I thought that would make it hard. The dissolved solids are at 523 ppm according to the water report, but I've always heard that the water here is soft. In fact, according to that same water report "Hardness in water is caused by the presence of calcium and magnesium and is measured in mg/L of calcium carbonate (CaCO3). College Station’s water has a hardness of 8.14 mg/L and is considered “soft” (0 - 75 mg/L CaCO3). This softness is a characteristic of our source water."

YES I am confused!
Ellen

[SCOTT]

Re: Substrates

8.14 is soft, 12 is about neutral and anything above a 16 or so would be considered hard. Trying to remember all this off the top of my head so my numbers may be a little off, but still should be close. Even tho the water may filter thru the limestone in order for it to absorb the carbonates in the limestone the PH itself of the water needs to be below a 8.2 in order to disolve the limestone. The higher the initial PH of the water, the less limestone it will absorb. To explain a little more, rain falls at lets say a ph of 7.0, it absorbs into the initial layer of earth mixing with the stone and other material in the ground and the ph swings to 7.8, it then hits the limestone layer and can only absorb .4 ph points worth of limestone before it stops leaching carbonates. The higher the alkalinity of the soil, which equates to the higher the ph of the water, the less carbonates the water can absorb. This is an over simplification, but you get the idea I hope. In short, low ph disolves carbonates, which increases hardness. High ph wont disolve carbonates, thus you get a low hardness, or soft water. Anyone have an aspirin?

[Ellen]

Re: Substrates

WOW! That is amazingly helpful. Thanks so much for explaining it all!

Ellen

[Ellen]

Re: Substrates

So has anybody here tried something a little different, or have any comments to make in that department?

Ellen

[PhishPhreek]

Re: Substrates

water hardness


water chemestry


bubbles

[gt3guru]

Re: Substrates

Also, adding baking soda is a good idea if you are going to be adding CO2 for plants. adding CO2 creates carbonic acid as it desolves.

[Tiapan]

Re: Substrates

besides eco complete there are several other substances, like flourite and flora base. from all i have read there are no people really happy with florabase which is good cus i have seen it run at over 30 bucks a bag for 12 lbs.!!!!, but you can get flourite from big al's online store for like 13 bucks a bag, not a bad deal at all even with shiping. i have flourite in my tank and it has done absolutely wonderfull. i am thinking of mxing eco and flourite in my next tank to give it a more destinctive look and add the benifits of eco and see how it does, i know it wont be bad(maybe a bit better) but check out big al's its a cool site and pretty cheap, cheaper then my workplace(petsmart)

[Ellen]

Re: Substrates

Thanks for the info, Tiapan!

Ellen