midget discus

[Kiovo]

We have 9 red turq discus we bought all around the same time back in April. When we got them, they were all about the same size, 2 1/2 to 3 inches. Five months later, 8 of them are well over 4 inches, showing great colors, eating, healthy, no problems. The 9th one has not grown one bit since we purchased it. It is still the same size, does not like/eat tetra color bits, only bloodworms. He is not getting bullied at feeding time and we put more than enough color bits in there for all of them.

My question is, if we separate him into a tank by himself and try to "power" feed him, do you guys think he'll get bigger, or is his growth permanently stunted?

Also, is there anything else we can try to feed him besides color bits and bloodworms? They do not like beefheart at all.

Any help is appreciated, thanks!

[Matt in Houston]

Go to angelsplus.com and look at their different types of flake foods...the people at simplydiscus.com swear by them....and they say the "meat eaters" flavor is a favorite.

I ordered some last week...should be here soon. I ordered 5 different ones, so we shall see!

[nacra99]

I think the key might be that he doesn't eat anything besides bloodworms.
Bloodworms are actually pretty nutritionally deficient and should not be used as a staple food.

Your little runt is may that size because of mal-nutrition. Other signs of malnutrion are skinny forehead, small size & large protruding eyes when compared to the body.

My first advice is to think about weaning him off the bloodworms and onto something more nutritious. While discus are famous for being picky eaters, perseverance usually pays off. I've had wild discus that took 1-2 months to finally eat beefhearts and tetrabits. So don't give up hope.

Second while weaning them off the bloodworms, you want to boost the nutrition of the bloodworms by soaking in selcon or another supplements used for gut loading. I highly suggest soaking in beefheart juice or tetrabits (or other kind of good quality pellets) in order to get them used to the flavor. Over time, add bits of beefheart or tetrabits and start to wean them. There will be lots of uneaten foods at first, so remember to do your water changes & vacuuming.

Just a tip... it really really is much easier if you do the transition in a bare bottom tank. Easy maintenance & water changes. After they are eating their new food, you can return them to the main tank.

With lots of water changes and feeding highly nutritious food, he may well catch up with his other friends.

Good luck!

[Kiovo]

I know bloodworms isn't the best thing to feed them, but he will starve for 2-3 days and then i'll panic and feed him bloodworms.

We'll order some of the flakes and move him over to his own tank and hopefully see some growth!

[Darbex]

He will eventually eat it when he is starving. But as long as you keep giving him the bloodworms he will keep eating only that. I heard someone once compared it to kids and cookies they will eat cookies for the rest of their lives if the could but you have to keep forcing the right stuff in their mouths.

[nacra99]

I know bloodworms isn't the best thing to feed them, but he will starve for 2-3 days and then i'll panic and feed him bloodworms.

We'll order some of the flakes and move him over to his own tank and hopefully see some growth!

You can keep feeding him bloodworms for now, but soak them first in beefheart juice (or whatever you want him to eventually eat). Let him get used to the flavor.

This is a shameless plug, but have a look at this vid that i put together to wean my wild fish.

http://www.ventralfins.com/misc_articles_weaning_wild_fish.html

just jump straight to the vid at the bottom of the page.

good luck!

[Complexity]

Go to angelsplus.com and look at their different types of flake foods...the people at simplydiscus.com swear by them....and they say the "meat eaters" flavor is a favorite.

I ordered some last week...should be here soon. I ordered 5 different ones, so we shall see!

I read others raving about their foods so I bought some. My fish absolutely devour it! In fact, I have to be careful because one of their favorites is the Fry Starter #2 which is very high in protein. In fact, this was the food that coaxed my paracyps away from their rocks and up to the top of the tank. They couldn't wait for it to come down so they went to the top to eat it!

http://angelsplus.com/PelletStarter.htm

I got a few other foods from them, and my fish love them all. I only rarely feed regular flakes so my fish are pretty spoiled. They go after these foods just as much as they do frozen bloodworms and other frozen foods. The price is also very reasonable.

[jeb102385]

i have always feed my discus blood worms and have no problems every once and a while i will feed tetra color bits but thats it and my discus are all healthy and i know that is all dan at haw ever feed his discus too

[Bogdan]

bloodworms

Hi Nacra99,

Would you mind to tell me where did you get the idea that "Bloodworms are actually pretty nutritionally deficient...". Is this just your opinion or can you point out some scientific source? No offense I am just really curious about the nutritional value of bloodworms.

Bogdan

[Complexity]

Here's the nutritional page for Hikari frozen bloodworms.

http://www.hikariusa.com/products/bio-pure/bio-pure_blood_worms.php

Protein -------- 6.0%
Fat ------------- 0.5%
Fiber ----------- 0.9%
Moisture ------- 89.0%

For the most part, it's water.

Compare that to the Fry Starter #2 I mentioned above.

http://angelsplus.com/PelletStarter.htm

Protein -------- 55.0%
Fat ------------- 15.0%
Fiber ----------- 2.0%
Moisture ------- ?

I think the assertion that frozen bloodworms contains very little nutrition is accurate.

[Bogdan]

I think you missed the point. Nutritious doesn't equal high protein content. Just because bloodworms consist of 6% protein doesn't mean they are nutritionally deficient. I think this is the best food for fish as it is natural food which fish really eat in the wild.
Now the artificial food can contain as much as 100% of protein and it doesn't mean that this is better. I would even say that this is probably nutritionally deficient because it is artificial and can never 100% mimic a natural food. It is not only about the protein content, there are hundreds of other ingredients. Generally it concerns all food: for humans, dogs, fish et cetera. Natural is good and the more processed the worse. This is purely only my personal opinion.

[cichlid1409]

i always assumed that the runt in the litter was just the fish at the bottom of the dominant ladder..

[nacra99]

Bogdan, i will have to respectfully disagree with your opinions on the bloodworms. And i will also have to dispute the claim that discus naturally solely eat midge fly larvae as their natural food source in the amazon. Discus in the wild eat a good mixture of insects, worms, invertebrates & other smaller fish. That way they get a good will rounded and balanced diet.

As omnivores or carnivores, they need about 5%fat, 4%fiber, 50% protein and the remaining can be vitamins, minerals & water. If you want to give the discus the same amount of nutrition, you will have to feed at least 10 times the volume of bloodworms to achieve this kind of nutrition. Growouts like the ones that Koivo has require a higher percentage of fat. Unless you are saying that we should feed each discus 10 cubes of bloodworms at one sitting. Otherwise there is no way bloodworms alone can satisfy the nutritional needs of a discus (or any large fish for that matter). Kinda like eating rabbit for a year and still starving to death because rabbits lack the complete nutrition to keep a person alive.

To draw an analogy, Cabbage! As with bloodworms, cabbage is natural and what our ancestors would have eaten. It is 90% water, but it still has some protein, lots of fiber and even some lipids. It even probably has trace amounts of vitamin C. However for our human bodies, i would consider cabbage to be nutritionally deficient. I would probably have to eat 50 heads of cabbage in one sitting to be able to get the same nutritional benefits of one piece of lean steak. Same for bloodworms. The amount of nutrition per unit volume is so small... that's what makes it nutritionally deficient for healthy fish.

That is why discus breeders go to great pains to feed their discus quality beefheart mixtures with all sorts of vitamins, minerals & a high level of protein which discus needs. High quality processed foods also provide the adequate amount of nutrition for the volume of food fed.

I will also have to dispute the claim that frozen bloodworms are "Natural". Here's what i found on the back of my package of Ocean Nutrition Bloodworms... they had to add a butt load of "un-natural" stuff to artificially boost its nutrition.

"Blood worms, water, vitamins (ascorbic acid, beta carotene, biotin, hydroxocobalamin (source of Vitamin B12), niacin, riboflavin, thiamine HCL), amino acids (dl-methionine, l-lysine, taurine), and trace elements (calcium chloride, potassium iodide, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, magnesium carbonate, and zinc sulfate)."

I'm not saying don't feed bloodworms. My discus love them. But don't JUST feed bloodworms. They need other bits of vitamins, minerals etc that bloodworms just don't provide.

there was a similar discussion on my second most favorite forum (fishbox being my #1 of course)
Click here: Can Discus Survive off of just Bloodworms?

[Kiovo]

Alright, got the little guy moved out in a 20t by himself, ordered a few different flake foods, they should be arriving sometime this week. Fed him bloodworms since i figured it'll be a few days before the flakes come. He doesn't seem too happy being moved but he ate the bloodworms.

He probably is the runt because he's the least dominant but if i can, I would like to get him bigger. They're all twice his size now. But from what I can tell he's not bullied and I feed them 3-4 times a day and he has plenty of opportunities to eat.

[peterp63]

Why not dunk the bloodworms in Vita-Chem to get the added vitamins and minerals? Doesn't solve the protein problem, but supposedly it "increases growth" and "restores appetite"...