Which is WHICH!?!?

[jeebus]

Okay, so my wife and I are relative noobz to this whole fish experiment, but for the life of us we still can't tell what the difference is between most Tropheus Moorii Ilangis and Kambwimba (or Kasanga) Red Rainbows. And here's my example of our dilemma:



On the left is a pictures of Honkzz' Kambwimba Rainbow Reds. On the right are Eklikewhoa's Ilangis.

Now, in some of Eklikewhoa's pictures (from this thread..) I can clearly tell that they're Ilangi:



But in most pictures, like the first one I posted, I (nor my wife, nor most of our fish loving friends) can tell them apart.

So which is which, and how EXACTLY (in explicit detail please!) are you identifying one from the other when they don't look like the second picture posted???

[eklikewhoa]

Re: Which is WHICH!?!?

Dorsal and anal fin are different and if you find a picture that has a RR displaying then it's a lot easier to tell the difference.

This is the Trophs.com home page banner......

[eklikewhoa]

Re: Which is WHICH!?!?

It's really hard to tell from pictures alone unless the same person took those pictures under same circumstances.

If you see them in person they are easily distinguishable.

[jeebus]

Re: Which is WHICH!?!?

So in the right light, do the ones from the first picture I posted look more like the one in the second picture?

[eklikewhoa]

Re: Which is WHICH!?!?

Well from looking at it.....

looks like the one on the left was taken without flash while the one on the right was with flash.

[jeebus]

Re: Which is WHICH!?!?



Well, my problem is that no matter how you slice it, the fish from both of these pictures look the same, and I just want to make sure that if confronted with this in person when shopping for Tropheus, I will be able to 100% be able to tell the difference.

[eklikewhoa]

Re: Which is WHICH!?!?

They are different if you really look at them and know what to look for.

Also this is a reason why you should only buy from reputable sources.

[jeebus]

Re: Which is WHICH!?!?



Yeah, but what's the difference in this picture? They look too similar to me (and others) to distinguish and identify.

[eklikewhoa]

Re: Which is WHICH!?!?

Dorsal and anal fin are different

The ones on the left have the blue metallic speckling throughout the dorsal and anal fin while the ones on the right do not.
The color of the dorsal/anal on the left are more of a red/purple while the ones on the right are a more red/brown.
Yellow patch on the flank of the left is more of a rounded centralized spot while the ones on the right are more throughout the body.
The ones on the left when sold by a reputable seller should be labeled RedRainbows/Kambwimba/Kasanga/Tanzania while the ones on the right will be labeled as Ilangi/Nkambe Bay.
The ones on the left will fetch upwards to $20ea. while the ones on the right have been upwards to $80ea.

[rrocket2002]

Re: Which is WHICH!?!?

I would wait for Geoff_Tropheus to respond.  He will more than likely shed some light, but won't be till tomorrow at the earliest.

[eklikewhoa]

Re: Which is WHICH!?!?

Here is a much better example of the two differences.



picture taken by Kristian

[eklikewhoa]

Re: Which is WHICH!?!?

[Zulaab]

Re: Which is WHICH!?!?

Also note the pectoral fins on the RR are Red.. the Ilangi are black.  That is the first thing I noticed in the picture.

Yes they are in short closely related and would not have a problem spawning between them, highly disliked in the community as there is already enough variation in nature, that adding aquarium based hybrids is frowned upon.

If you have time to meet one of these days (since the last club meeting was Friday) I can bring a few books that will show a large number of different kinds of Tropheus out there.  If you are interested in books to read up on Tropheus, I believe the top books about Tropheus are as follows.

Tanganyika Cichlids, in their Natural Habitat by Ad Konings
Tanganyika Cichlids, Back to Nature by Ad Konings
Aqualog: African Cichlids II, Tanganyika I Tropheus by Peter Schupke

There are several VERY good books available in German, including MiniAtlas Tropheus by Frank Schneidewind and Tropheus by Hans-Joachim Herrmann

[jeebus]

Re: Which is WHICH!?!?

Also note the pectoral fins on the RR are Red.. the Ilangi are black.  That is the first thing I noticed in the picture.

Which picture? Did you mean that the Ilangi are red and the RR are black? That's what I'm seeing.

Tanganyika Cichlids, Back to Nature by Ad Konings

I appreciate the offer, but Truong (from Xtreme) ordered me this book, along with a similar Malawi book yesterday. I should be getting them sometime early this week. I spent a good hour in his store yesterday reading it (Back to Nature). The guy is so cool he even offered to let me borrow it!


For the record, I can easily tell the difference between this:


and this:



It's this:

that I'm having trouble distinguishing. I know I have good eyes, and to me, these are the same fish. Which brings me to another question:

Yes they are in short closely related and would not have a problem spawning between them, highly disliked in the community as there is already enough variation in nature, that adding aquarium based hybrids is frowned upon.

Why is it frowned upon?

[Zulaab]

Re: Which is WHICH!?!?

I know that there will be plenty of people who can give a better explanation, but this is the one I stick to.

There are many different variants in nature, and most people who keep Tropheus like pure strains of their fish (because they dont want the variations) so if you sell variants then the gene pool will be "polluted" and this is what most fish keepers don't want to see.   You have to remember that Tropheus importation is still relative new (since about 1990) for most species, and most keepers could not afford them and therefore if they wanted to get a specific kind had to get fry from someone at a substancial cost savings, but they still wanted pure fish, and this has continued on into what most people 15+ yrs later still want.
 If you keep your hybrids that is fine, but selling them might prove difficult.  This is why most people keep one strain of fish only so they know for sure which males and females breed.  Now that does not stop you from putting several different species of tropheus together, because some will not under any circumstances interbreed, such as Tropheus Duboisi will not interbreed with anything else, so that makes that a safe fish to blend with a non duboisi.  

In my tank which I hope to have up and running sometime after Christmas I am going to have Duboisi (Right now I am growing out juveniles) and some kind of Moorii or Brichardi (the RR and Ilangi are both Moorii).

Without trying to digress to far the biologists currently support the existence of 6 different type of Tropheus in the lake, Dubosis, Annectens (Polli), Brichardi, Moorii, Sp. "black" and Sp. "red"  -- The latter two came from the two latter groups, but given different sub categories as their coloration and living conditions made them enough different to give them their own subspecies group.   The word on the street is you can blend one of each kind together and they will not interbreed.  The first four fish groups have biological difference between each other as in number scales before and after certain points on the fish and other real physical difference between the fish.  The latter two may not have physical difference between the groups, but their lifestyle and other qualities is what makes them different.

In short you can hybrid breed all you want, but if you attempt to sell them it will prove nearly impossible.  Most true owners want to be able to sell their young as you generally can get for a RR or Ilangi fry anywhere between $8-12 a fish.  In a happy tank you will most likely end up with 30 fry every 3-4 months that you will need to get rid off.  If it becomes known that you are selling Hybrids, you most likely no matter what you do sell the fish.  You will have to kill your young because they will grow up and at some point over populate your tank.

Again I am not trying to stop you putting different kinds together, you will just down the road end up with problems I would to see you avoid.

Thanks for listing.  I have listed only my 2c worth.. I am sure that others will correct me if necessary.