We hold these truths

[Tiapan]

Re: We hold these truths

If you really wanted it to be fair, Basically all those above poverty line (whatever that line is because they say it needs to be re-evaluated) should pay a flat rate and then there would be no need for all these crazy tax laws. if everyone pays the same it would be hard pressed to say that wasnt fair. now those that would argue that would say that those that want to invest should get breaks because they help the economy. SO those that end up making more pay less, and therefor not fair. I have my 2 small small businesses (not even enough to make much of a difference) but i could theoritically write off a whole bunch of stuff as they are materials for my businesses. but i simply look at that cost as an investment. i factor that into my cost and whether i can afford to get more before i pick up new clients. I plan for the worst and sometimes get the best. (good example i got a lot of Salt supplies for a client because they said they wanted more frequent maintnance, and they backed out of the deal because i didnt get a contract because i dont have a tax license, i know i should get one, and now i basically broke even and havent made a dime off the whole deal.) that happens a lot in business. Actually if things dont go the way they planned Businesses lose money. thats the RISK. Thats what i hated about those Stimulus packages, Businesses that made bad descisions by making bad loans to people complain when the economy downturns and they are out millions for making loans to people and raising the rates beyond what they can pay. Seems they got greedy and made a bad choice )as did the people who got Variable rate loans, not the best choice. But Bailing them out is just as bad as Bailing out someone on Welfare. And would cost a whole lot more then Welfare does. funny How its ok to Bail out the Wealthy and not the Downtrodden. Now i HATE how welfare works now. But dont act like a Stimulus package isnt the same thing for companies.

[TheReefWhisperer]

Re: We hold these truths

Let me think of this before writing...

Ok... This is my opinion...

I feel that Barack Obama wants to give more out so more people will decide to become lazy and depend on the government. The more that the government gives... the more people start depending on the government. It is kinda like some of our grandparents that has been married for over 30 years. Back in the day, most women did not work and were very dependent on their husbands to make the money and to pay the bills. 30 years later, the husband decides to leave for his own reasons leaving the wife with no income. That is what happens with some of the people on welfare. They depend on the government to take care of them and when they see it might be coming to an end... they vote for a president who wants to keep "spreading the wealth". I am only 34 but I can tell you that the world changed in my early 20s. Marriages failed more often, people who did wrong were more protected that those that they harmed, family values are almost gone, religion is no longer allowed outside your home, people think that the world owes them something instead of working for it, child rapist are protected, and on and on....

I can honestly say that if my grandparents were still alive, they would be preaching left and right about all of our wrongings! The problem with the world is that everyone knows the difference of right and wrong but we, as the people, have become lazy with what we accept in our neighborhoods. In my grandfathers day, he would not accept a child rapist living in his neighborhood. He would tell you to get off you butt and go to work. He would tell you that if you put your hand into his wealth, he would cut it off. I can hear him now... " If I can have a job than you can too." I know for a fact that he was a giving man but only to those who tried to fix their situation and no matter how hard that they worked, they were going to fall short. The only handouts that lazy people would get from him were the bridges that he paid taxes on so they would still have a place to live. He just did not tolerate lazy people and he made sure that the lazy knew it.

[Tiapan]

Re: We hold these truths

however i dont believe huge tax breaks to the super rich is right either

Just out of curiousity....what's a huge tax break to you? During the Carter administration the highest tax bracket was, I think, like 72%. So what's a huge tax break? Reagan cut that to 28% and tax revenues INCREASED.

And Spending went through the roof. Actually the only time the national Dept has been paid back at all since its creation by FDR (which helped end the Depression) was during Clintons terms. Look it up. And i didnt put a number on it because i wasnt talking specifics, honestly it wasnt soo bad 10 years ago. The real idea is that i trust those with the doctorates in Economics to debate it till the cows come home. because they all have different views. But the real truth is that the economy will be driven by the Consumers, no matter how much they mess with it. As more people get tight with their money businesses will take a down turn. then as people save up more money, more will feel safer risking some. or they invest more safely in IRAs and Mutual funds or Bonds. which will spread the investments among more companies so they can keep developing. ALL economies take ups and downs. We havent had a big down in a while so we are kinda due, similar to us getting hit with IKE. it has to happen sooner or later. Same goes for Greener spending. we probably wont see a huge change in habits until the greener choices become less expensive. the Pocketbook always wins in the end. because food and shelter should typicaly win out over new rims on a car (again you cant force people to make good decisions, and dont start in on election i was just saying, i know when i should stay in and watch TV instead of going out, yet sometimes i go anyway)

[ImaGuyGeek]

Re: We hold these truths

Tiapan, I love ya dude (in a totally hetero way) but you have all the answers. You're like a Carpenter with all the tools and all the knowledge but still questions weather or not to buy furniture rather then make it.

I was with IBM for 7 years. This was when layoffs happened every 6 months. Mostly older guys with pension plans. You have choices. Go to a competitor for more money or stay where you are for comfort. It is only your choice. I had the same choices and I chose to leave IBM.

You have to choose what is best for you but knowing the situation gives you the ability to own that choice and control your own situation.

Knowledge is power, understanding is strength.

[Tiapan]

Re: We hold these truths

thank you for the compliment, from you that means a lot because i really respect your well thought out and intelligent aproach to our world. i may have to show you the sketch me and some friends put on paper one night over Wings and Beer about a slightly altered government that we thought might work better. I definately could refine it a bit but was some interesting stuff :wink:

[ImaGuyGeek]

Re: We hold these truths

You're a very intelligent person. You have knowledge and strength, you will make the right decisions for you. That is much more than most so own that. Only you know what will make you happy :)

[Nickintex]

Re: We hold these truths

I can't wait for the bombs to start going off at random times here in the USA, now that Mr. Rogers is Commander in Chief.

You wont have long to wait there buddy.....can you say late January ...That's right.....Jan u ary..... :)


CF

                       
How about I start with this thread!

[Nickintex]

Re: We hold these truths

IGG, and others on HFB, even if we disagree on these matters, you guys are still my friends (I hope)!

[fishlady]

Re: We hold these truths

"President Kennedy told Americans in June 1963, “For, in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children’s future. And we are all mortal.”



I think this says alot .........

[Tiapan]

Re: We hold these truths

Nick it isnt even disagreeing so much as seeing a different possibility. I wanted to make a statement related to the one earlier, i forget who said it, but it was about failing values in America. What exactly does the government have to say about that. Besides the laws that are meant to protect people from Harm. the government should have no say in what my values are as long as i am not breaking the law. and if you start putting a law on values, you have to decide whos values. goes back to prohibition idea, booze is bad, lets ban it. well that worked out well. and if you want to go the religion route, the reason this country was founded was to avoid having to follow a religion you didnt believe in (that and general colonization for money too, cant forget about money). That whole idea drives me nuts. watch some of those videos about what people were afraid of if Obama becames President. "Blacks will take over" "This is a Christian Nation" "Palin is filled with the Holy Spirit". At what point did we become a Theocracy. Take a look at the Middle East and see what Religion does to Government.
The whole point of not having religion everywhere (like school prayer and the like, though if they have a voluterry club that happens to meet at the school and they pray i have nothing against that, but you would have to allow other religion clubs too and not just christian and that would not go over so well, of course you can pray anywhere by yourself.) is so people dont feel that its being pressed on them like in other countries where it is forced. And yes it is pressed on people here too. Take for example Christmas, the Biggest Holiday in the US. We already see Xmas decorations up for sale weeks before Halloween, almost just as Summer is over. there was a customer who came into the store i work at last year and got angry because it said happy holidays instead of merry christmas everywhere. Because it was christmas we should call it that and it was disrespectful to Jesus. I had to walk away from fear of Laughing in her face. the actually Holiday was a Pagan holiday that was converted to a Christian one to help convert more people to that religion, same reason they removed Circumsizing as a necessity (when Christianity thought it was just going to be a different sect of Judaism) i wanted to say fine i will put up a poster saying merry Winter Solstice, or the PC ChristmaHannuQuanzaca.  Ok enough ranting, the point is the reason Values (whatever you want to say they are) are not what they used to be is we arent the same country we used to be. When you can make more Money by being a greedy company that screws over you employees and that raises stock values, no one cares as long as their investment portfolio stays stable for their retirement. of course if it were for laws we could still be in Rail Baron days. Honesty and Trust are just not good enough anymore. Because they dont mean anything without a contract, not anymore. I try to stand against that, by being as honest as i possibly can and keeping my word. of course i cant duel someone if they challenge my honor anymore so how can i truly feel as if i have any. :wink:

[Tiapan]

Re: We hold these truths

as you can see by the long message I was looking for a time in American History where you could say that we had truly good values.(you know the whole Massacering the Native Americans,Slavery and the Civil War, the Forced take over of Hawaii,Japanese Internment camps, the only Nation in the world to use the Atomic bomb on a Civilian Population,the list goes on and on because we as a nation are very far from perfect, but as the statement goes, history is written by the victorious) Because there are always much larger arguments that we are just now finally Starting to become a truly just and fair nation with values bases on true equality, but we are still not there yet, no sir.

[geoff_tropheus]

Re: We hold these truths

So lets go roll Italy, becuase the Romans enslaved White Anglos, Persians, Muslims, and Africans..

[wesleydnunder]

Re: We hold these truths

Hard work. There is a lack of integrity in this country by the overwhelming support for a man who's policy is one that punishes those who work the hardest (make the most money), but rewards mediocracy instead.

The proof is that I have no desire to work any harder and promote, for Kim to get her Master's degree and promote, or for my family to invest into a small business as we planned, all because right now, we get a larger reward (tax credits/breaks) for not doing so.

Now that's a new America.

So your saying that anyone who makes less than $250,000 a year is mediocre and doesn't work hard? The majority of the American workforce busts their a$$es for the money they earn. I worked construction for most of my life, most of that was putting in 60, 70, 80 hour weeks. Some years I made really good money, but never got close to a quarter million.

And the idea that those who make the most money are the hardest workers isn't realistic. The top 1% work far fewer hours than those in the bottom half. If the business y'all had planned makes $250,000 or less a year, there will be no change to the taxes paid by it, less taxes paid if the business makes less than $200,000 a year, so how does that penalize y'all?

Mark

[marauder_77868]

Re: We hold these truths

so how does that penalize y'all?

Because those are the businesses that make the products that we all use. When the prices go up to compensate for the extra taxes...guess who pays the true cost?

[wesleydnunder]

Re: We hold these truths

Hard work and striving for more is being discouraged more and more in this country. Having money or not does not make one a bad person. It's the choices one makes that puts them in their position that determines good or bad.

How is hard work being discouraged? I've been in the workforce longer than most of the members here and haven't seen the evidence of this. Please be specific in your examples.

That said, Obama's tax plan encourages bad behavior (Laziness, envy and lack of independence and responsibility) with financial reward and punishes good behavior (Hard work, independence, responsibility and personal growth and gain) with financial penalties.

Again, how is bad behavior encouraged and hard work and striving punished? Please be specific in your examples. Previous governments have handed out money in welfare programs and corporate subsidies. Both are a form of revenue sharing.

Let's put it in a context everyone can understand. We're all back in school and we have a test tomorrow. nick, you study all night to do well missing a party. I go out and have a blast at the party. Nick, you're in class on time and make a 100% on the test. I drag in late and hung over, didn't study and fail with a 40%. Mr Obama, our teacher decides that this isn't fair so we both get a 70%

Is that fair to either of us? No!

This is essentially Obama's Tax plan

That's a suspect analogy, GuyGeek.
1. The bell curve you describe has been around and in use at colleges and universities everywhere for a long, long time and is still in use.
2. You're equating someone who makes less than $250,000 a year as a skate and a drunk, basically a failure. The folks who make more than $250,000 are the self-sacrificing worthy hard workers.

Mark