We hold these truths

[Delock]

Re: We hold these truths

So will prices of overall good and services go down since gas prices are going down?

[wesleydnunder]

Re: We hold these truths

so how does that penalize y'all?

Because those are the businesses that make the products that we all use. When the prices go up to compensate for the extra taxes...guess who pays the true cost?

But the taxes for Jeebus didn't go up in either of my examples. So...what extra taxes?

Mark

[CichlidFan]

Re: We hold these truths

So will prices of overall good and services go down since gas prices are going down?

I don't believe so Delock, and I expect gas prices to start going back up here shortly. JMO

CF

[ImaGuyGeek]

Re: We hold these truths

Hard work and striving for more is being discouraged more and more in this country. Having money or not does not make one a bad person. It's the choices one makes that puts them in their position that determines good or bad.

How is hard work being discouraged? I've been in the workforce longer than most of the members here and haven't seen the evidence of this. Please be specific in your examples.

That said, Obama's tax plan encourages bad behavior (Laziness, envy and lack of independence and responsibility) with financial reward and punishes good behavior (Hard work, independence, responsibility and personal growth and gain) with financial penalties.

Again, how is bad behavior encouraged and hard work and striving punished? Please be specific in your examples. Previous governments have handed out money in welfare programs and corporate subsidies. Both are a form of revenue sharing.

Let's put it in a context everyone can understand. We're all back in school and we have a test tomorrow. nick, you study all night to do well missing a party. I go out and have a blast at the party. Nick, you're in class on time and make a 100% on the test. I drag in late and hung over, didn't study and fail with a 40%. Mr Obama, our teacher decides that this isn't fair so we both get a 70%

Is that fair to either of us? No!

This is essentially Obama's Tax plan

That's a suspect analogy, GuyGeek.
1. The bell curve you describe has been around and in use at colleges and universities everywhere for a long, long time and is still in use.
2. You're equating someone who makes less than $250,000 a year as a skate and a drunk, basically a failure. The folks who make more than $250,000 are the self-sacrificing worthy hard workers.

Mark

Okay, let me try again and I will start off by saying that it's not the amount of money anyone earns that defines them. I'm not interested in humoring class warfare.

That said, I personally see higher tax rates for higher earners as a financial penalty for improving the standard of life for yourself and your family.

in my limited experience myself, family and friends have almost always improved earning potential through hard work and bettering your opportunity to earn by pursuing further education, working harder than ones peers and proving ones worth and reliability to employers. By doing these things one can move up in tax brackets and is penalized financially for doing so by having more of that hard earned money taken away.

Now, you also have to believe that Obama has changed and his track record of voting to raise taxes on everyone above the poverty line is no longer who he is and that the waffling between $150k to $250k is nothing to worry about.

[wesleydnunder]

Re: We hold these truths

All the diversionary tactics aside, you have to admit that faced with the facts broken down into simplistic terms the scenario we are all facing is far from fair to anyone.

Life is a series of choices and we live with those choices even if we decide we don't like the outcome later on down the road.

An excellent example for the abolition of the income tax. Go to a use tax in stead. That way no one is exempt. Even those folks who make minimum wage spend money. Things in the tax code like earned income credit and tax returns for folks who paid no taxes irk the hell outta me, and those have been around since before this election. We all spend money, so in stead of taking 20% or 30% or more on the front side of our checks, based on how much we earn, take 10% on top of each sale. Even the paid-under-the-table illegals will contribute their share. Use taxes work in other countries, they can work in this one.

Mark

[marauder_77868]

Re: We hold these truths

Mark...
We finally agree on one. The argument against this that the liberals will make though is that the consumption of actual goods by the rich is lower as a percentage of their income than it is for the poor. Thus the poor will bear higher taxes as expressed as a percentage of their income. But it is, by definition fair and I would vote for it if it were ever put before me.

[geoff_tropheus]

Re: We hold these truths

You have got to have people making "widgets" our of raw materials to have stuff.

Otherwise, there is not going to be anyone to buy pizza's.

IF the Refineries of Exxon Mobil, Shell, Valero, BP, and Chevron left...

who would live here?

IF the government keeps making it harder and harder, they will be forced to shutdown.

The Big 3 are getting killed by the Labor Unions to such a degree that they cannot hardly compete with Toyota, Honda, and other foreign automakers. IT wont be long...and America will have little to nothing to offer the world economy.

The only economy we will have, will be our own..and then we'll be like the other Marxist States in Europe and in the downfall.

If we want to stay number 1 we got to be Mobil, and have Capitalism at its finest....

Otherwise,...our kids wont even be able to sell pizza's  except..to those on Welfare!!

[wesleydnunder]

Re: We hold these truths

You have got to have people making "widgets" our of raw materials to have stuff.

Otherwise, there is not going to be anyone to buy pizza's.

IF the Refineries of Exxon Mobil, Shell, Valero, BP, and Chevron left...
who would live here?
IF the government keeps making it harder and harder, they will be forced to shutdown.

The oil companies won't leave. They will pass any increases they bear on to us as already demonstrated by them, and still make record profits every quarter. There is a finite number of refineries in the world. The ones in the US won't be abandoned, and definitely won't be shut down.

The Big 3 are getting killed by the Labor Unions to such a degree that they cannot hardly compete with Toyota, Honda, and other foreign automakers. IT wont be long...and America will have little to nothing to offer the world economy.

The big three are losing their asses from the lack of foresight on the part of overpaid CEOs and management. While other auto manufacturers were making smaller gas-efficient vehicles which, btw, tend to last longer than American-made autos, the Big 3 were tossing all their eggs into the SUV and Supertruck basket. I agree that union auto workers are higher paid than the job calls for, but by the time our economy gets back on its feet, I don't think labor costs to the Big 3 are gonna be much of an issue.

The only economy we will have, will be our own..and then we'll be like the other Marxist States in Europe and in the downfall.
If we want to stay number 1 we got to be Mobil, and have Capitalism at its finest....
Otherwise,...our kids wont even be able to sell pizza's  except..to those on Welfare!!

I sort of agree with this last part, but we need to bring some regulatin back into the system. Unrestrained, unregulated growth is only good for cancer cells, viruses and bacteria. Capitalism at its finest is what got our economy in the shape it's in now. Left to their own sense of honesty and restraint, the Wall St. crew behaved, sadly, very predictably.

Mark

[geoff_tropheus]

Re: We hold these truths

The refineries here will one day if the enviromental regulations make it non profitable.  Haliburton already moved to Dubai, it wont be long till others.

Back in the day it was Monteray Mexico, now its turning into Shanghai China.

AS more and more companies leave the US to produce goods cheaper in foreign countries and ship here, because it will be cheaper to do that, than own and operate in the US to do it.

They will leave..

As for the Big 3, it is the HUGE baby boomers and retirements that is killing them, not their fatcats.  Its bull**** that they pay an autoworker $25 an hour to start and all he does it put screws in a dashboard.  Totally overpaid for his skill set.

The Unions did that to them.

Toyota, Kia, and other ASian manufacturers can spend the capital to re-tool, re-engineer, and make new because they dont have to spend capital on overpaid workers and huge benfits packages.

The Big 3 cannot compete.

Just like Harley in the 80's the governemnet protected them, so all the Japanese did was fine tune their opperations and make a better under 700cc bike, and then the regulations were changed, and now they are making better bikes, and Harley is still scratching their heads on how to make a better one.

The government protected HArley with Tarifs and we paid for it..a subpar leaking *** motorcycle becuyase the others were too small or could nto afford the import taxes.

If the Big 3 dont wake up soon, there will be a problem.

[Tyler]

Re: We hold these truths

The government protected HArley with Tarifs and we paid for it..a subpar leaking EDIT motorcycle becuyase the others were too small or could nto afford the import taxes.

Hey, that automatic oil change system was just to far ahead of it's time.