Keeping Church and State Seperate...

[FrontosaurusRex]

We've been breifly discussing this topic under another thread so I figured we'd just make a new thread where we can discuss the way religion is affecting our day to day lives. For example, my brother mentioned that he found it to be rediculous that some schools have banned prayer before sporting events, etc. When that happend in Baytown, my parents freaked out. They thought it was an outrage and alot of people got fired up. I, on the other hand, appreciate the law finally realizing that we aren't all Christians. You dont have to be atheist to feel discriminated against with prayer in the schools. I always feel awkward when people start to pray around me because society says that you are suppossed to be Christian and at dinner time, you say a prayer and thank God for supplying your meal and what-not. Imagine being a teenage kid in highschool with all of your friends around and you're the only one not bowing your head in prayer...you'll forever be taunted for that. Its not right and I'm glad those kids dont have to be forced into the nonsense. I say, if you're going to have prayer time for Christians, you need prayer for Jews, Muslims, etc.....and for atheists, we get to just go outside and stare at each other for 10 minutes..LOL.
I understand that our country was founded on certain laws and beliefs that are of the Christian religion and thats fine....for THEM. I dont judge those that are Christian. I couldnt care less what religion you are, but I am sick and tired of having it force fed to me every day of my life. I drive down the street and see billboards with "inspiring" messages from God himself. You never drive down the road and see a sign that gives you the scientific evidence that evolution is FACT and therefore proving that Genesis is a lie. Its a neat story, but its not true.
Its even printed all over our money as to say, "this money is for Christians only". I'm not one of those people ready to go to war to change this stuff, but it definately bugs the hell out of me. Comedian Dave Chapelle made a very good point in one of his skits. He was talking about how Americans fought to get Saddams face off of his countries currency and how that was so awesome to have done that for them. Then he said, "....if we can do that for them, what about our money....our money looks like baseball cards with slave owners faces on it...." Thats so true. We have men....Christian men....that owned, tortured and abused black people back in the day but they are immortalized on our currency. Those are some of the same men that helped found this country and they are the ones that established their laws, Christian laws, on this country. But they were Presidents and they fought wars and so on. So you Christians ignore the dark side of their pasts. Thats what I meant on another thread when I said that Christians play fast and loose with the rules they have to follow. Its like, "...we like chapters one, two and three, but we dont really wanna follow four and five so we'll just ignore them". At least as an Atheist, we can hold our head up at the end of the day because we know we didnt oppress anybody with our beliefs, nor did we try to change the minds of other people with our beliefs. We have our beliefs, and thats the end of it.....why cant Christians do the same?

[Darbex]

You think its not true but you dont know for fact it isnt and they are actually finding more and more proof that stories in the bible did happen. And actually agnosticism and evolution theory is shoved down or throats daily and in schools with out even given creationism a chance. So why must we listen to only one side of the story as fact and not all sides in school? So you are saying that it is easier to believe that we evovled from single cell creatures. All life forms on Earth have eyes and a neural system that is so complex that we can still not replicate it. And you are telling me it is easier to believe that by chance the eye evolved from a single cell? For me it is easier to believe that someone or something had a hand in lifes design. I believe in evolution not Evolution. And your comment on the dark side of Christians. Everything will have a dark side because it is run by humans. We are faulty we never get everything right. Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Taoism, Buddhaism, Agnostics, and etc. have all done things wrong in the name of what they believe but that doesnt make their beliefs bad it makes them bad. That is like saying that you murdered someone in cold blood so that makes everyone with your last name evil. No it doesnt it makes you evil.

[Darbex]

I would also suggest that if you love how strict the christian right is in the US try seeing what it is like to live in Muslim right in the Middle East. I promise you it will give you a whole new perspective.

[Darbex]

One more point slavery was viewed as what was needed and what was right. We know understand that it isnt. With that being said from what I gather from you because someone did something centuries ago that we now determine is wrong he/she cannot be held in high regards for what they did for this nation? We are not celebrating that Washington was a slave owner we are celebrating that he helped create a nation that became one of the freest places on this Earth. And if you actually read about some of the founding fathers you will learn that they actually knew eventually that slavery could not exist for ever and that it was not morally right hence why they added words to the constitution and bill or rights that stated all men should be equal. They didnt say all white men were created equal.

[CichlidFan]

As generations come and go.....so do traditions and beliefs.


CF

[wesleydnunder]

I don't agree with agnostics; they're fence sitters. Either you believe or not, you can't hedge your bets.

I have to agree with Rhett on Genesis. It has a bunch of holes in it...same with the flood story... I think that if they are gonna have religious observations in schools and other buildings to which my tax dollars go, they should make equal time for all religions and the non religious.

I'd be interested to see what stories in the Bible have been "proven" to be true.

Mark

[FrontosaurusRex]

All you did was justify what I said about the white, Christian men that founded this country. We overlook the horrible stuff they did and concentrate on the good so that your religion doesnt take a hit. The Catholic religion tried everything in its power to conceal the perverts raping young boys for the sake of Catholosism. Its proven that the Catholic church also destroyed parts of the bible so that they could manipulate its words to suit their needs. I havent been to school since I was 19 but I never learned that Evolution was a fact. It was taught as the Theory of Evolution. Its no longer a theory. Its scientific fact. How does anybody see if any differently. We dont know HOW the single cell developed into the complex organisms that we are today, but at least we're trying to figure it out scientifically. You guys run around talking about "its God..." and then when asked how, "...uh...you just gotta have faith". Thats the ultimate crutch for you guys. I have debates with my friends about this and thats what they always fall back on like thats gonna prove a point. I used to be a Christian. I was the guitar player for our church band, I was a youth leader, I did ALOT for that church. But then I started paying attention to the behind-the-scenes crap and realized, you people are just as evil as the people you talk about every Sunday. So I stopped going. I started looking into Scientology and so much of that makes sense. I'm not a Scientologist per say, more like a Realist. My mom is Christian and she used to go outside and look at her flowers and be like, "...that flower is beautiful, thats how you know God is real....only God could make something that beautiful..." when in FACT, God had nothing to do with it. The soil, the minerals, the sun, the genetics of the plant, etc had EVERYTHING to do with why the plant was beautiful. And when I make this point, I'm sure some of you are saying, "...well who made the soil, the sund and the genetics..." we dont know for sure yet, but we're gonna figure it out. I hope I'm around when somebody finally gives an answer for that question and see the Christians running around trying to figure out another excuse as to how they're still right.


All I'm saying is, I dont care that you have your beliefs, I'm not asking America to believe what I do...but stop making me look like the bad guy for not following what you believe. Thats it.

[nikkijean1]

One more point slavery was viewed as what was needed and what was right. We know understand that it isnt. With that being said from what I gather from you because someone did something centuries ago that we now determine is wrong he/she cannot be held in high regards for what they did for this nation? We are not celebrating that Washington was a slave owner we are celebrating that he helped create a nation that became one of the freest places on this Earth. And if you actually read about some of the founding fathers you will learn that they actually knew eventually that slavery could not exist for ever and that it was not morally right hence why they added words to the constitution and bill or rights that stated all men should be equal. They didnt say all white men were created equal.

this statement seems contradictory so please explain if you can....you are saying that your research or knowledge tells you that the founders knew that slavery could not exist forever and therefore worded in the constitution "all men should be created equal"...so that they could what? eventually decided when the rest of the people they hared the country with could have their piece of the pie?..if they "knew" slavery couldn't last then they must have known it was wrong and it should have contradicted with their Christian beliefs....so then why keep it going? If they were good Christian men? Did their own convenience out way what they knew should have happened a long time ago? Just curious what point you were trying to make there because it seems a little off to me...

[thekarens]

I'm a Christian and have very strong beliefs. However, I also know that you cannot and should not shove your own beliefs down anyone's throat. You're going to get more people interested in your faith by living a life that others respect than you can by making rules and regulations about it. I completely agree with the separation of church and state.

If you want to use the argument that this country was founded on Christian beliefs then you have to get into which Christian beliefs? Well the Catholics believe xyz and the Baptists believe abc.... It's better to have church and state separated and everyone can believe or not believe as they choose.

[geoff_tropheus]

Rhett, Jesus loves you, one day you will again find him. He has never left you.

There is evil everywhere, and some people no matter how hard they try, it always finds a way into their lives, even the people who should strive to lead.

Priests, parishoners, pastors, and other lay people, his work is never at rest anymore than God's.

People are people, and what is in your heart will always be there.

It's like that one fable of the two wolves, one is evil, and the other good,...which one wins is the one that you choose to feed.

[ImaGuyGeek]

F rex, I have a good collection of our Founding Father's writings, Biographies and Auto Biographies. You are welcome to borrow any of them if you want to learn the facts about who these men were and what principles our country were founded on. Clearly you are basing your opinions of the founding of our country and its founders on a public school education and what you hear from comedians and on TV. What you know is wrong.

Samuel Adams was a poor farmer and owned 0 slaves.
Thomas Jefferson was anti slavery and was one of the first presidents to openly work towards freeing slaves

There is also no "Separation of church and state" in the Constitution or Bill of Rights

[thekarens]

F rex, I have a good collection of our Founding Father's writings, Biographies and Auto Biographies. You are welcome to borrow any of them if you want to learn the facts about who these men were and what principles our country were founded on. Clearly you are basing your opinions of the founding of our country and its founders on a public school education and what you hear from comedians and on TV. What you know is wrong.

Samuel Adams was a poor farmer and owned 0 slaves.
Thomas Jefferson was anti slavery and was one of the first presidents to openly work towards freeing slaves

There is also no "Separation of church and state" in the Constitution or Bill of Rights

If there is no "Separation of church and state" there certainly should be because "my" church and "your" church might not be the same. And though I agree that Jefferson did some tremendous things he was still a slave owner.

[newb]

I personally see that MOST people who claim to be atheists were people who gave religion a chance and got burned...so they put up a protective wall so as to not get burned again. I personally do not believe in CHURCH. I believe in God, the Bible, Jesus Christ, and Heaven...but do not see honesty and good values presented in the churches I have visited in the past. Just because something bad happens to you doesnt mean that God isn't real. Sometimes I think God tests our will. All things are done for a reason. Plus, nowadays there are a lot of Weird churches out there. So many of todays BIG churches are nothing more than a "feel-good" lesson. the Bible is not meant to be nothing but words of joy...sometimes the truth will bring you down. Lakewood church, Grace church, Living Hope church, Fountain of Praise church are feel-good speeches. These places use the Bible as a means to connect on a closer level to their viewers...but preaching the Word, they are not. A lot of what makes Christians look ridiculous at times is the fact that somebody can taint a good thing just by starting up their own church...and preaching their own views. In Baytown, for example, there is a great representation of this going on...and the way they are doing it is by reaching out to teens. The whole thing is presented towards teens who dont "fit-in" with the normal day-to-day crowd. It almost becomes a brainwash session as those that go will get insanely offened when questions are brought. I know friends who have gone and left literally freaked out...people shouting out demons, passing out on the floor, hollering out jiberish...complete nonsense. They do all this under the umbrella of a "non-denominational" church...basically a "preach it as you see it". I think the Bible is meant to be read and interpreted by the reader on a personal basis. A relationship with God is personal...so why shouldnt the Bible be. I am very proud to see Christianity still public in a few ways. It is a true shame that the government has catered to those that wish to break apart a good thing. Im not saying to go out calling out those that dont see things the way I do...but know that you are the one that is different. Not that that is wrong because I dont think we all are gonna find God at the same time. God reaches some at the oddest of times....and not on deathrow after killing 30 people. Things like this are what fuels the fire to non-believers.

[jeebus]

There is also no "Separation of church and state" in the Constitution or Bill of Rights

No, but there should be. Let one church in you have to let them all in - from Catholics to Jihadists.

As for the founding fathers, they were not perfect, but they did create a perfect document. It has taken us 200 years to properly interpret the greatness of it, and we are still trying to apply it (i.e. Gays inability to marry), but we are far better than we ever were - and hopefully that will continue.

[FrontosaurusRex]

F rex, I have a good collection of our Founding Father's writings, Biographies and Auto Biographies. You are welcome to borrow any of them if you want to learn the facts about who these men were and what principles our country were founded on. Clearly you are basing your opinions of the founding of our country and its founders on a public school education and what you hear from comedians and on TV. What you know is wrong.

Samuel Adams was a poor farmer and owned 0 slaves.
Thomas Jefferson was anti slavery and was one of the first presidents to openly work towards freeing slaves

There is also no "Separation of church and state" in the Constitution or Bill of Rights

First of all, I've always shown you and Traci nothing but respect so please dont attempt to downplay my intelligence because I didnt go to college or because I watch television. I was unaware that you graduated from Harvard....
I never said that ALL of our founding fathers were horrible people. I said that alot of them were. That is undisputable. We had slave owning, women beating, fornicators that ran this country and to this day, not much has changed. We have Presidents that cheat on their wives (all while being sworn in with your bible), we have presidents that over indulge in drugs (all while sworn in...) and we have Presidents that send innocent people to other countries to murder other innocent people (oh yeah, all while being sworn in by your bible). I cant stand when people, not you in particular, stand up and pound their chests at how wonderful our country is. Our country, our government, our president, our people are corrupt. They lie to our faces every single day about whats REALLY going on in the world.
The fact of the matter is, we need to change some things that maybe our founding fathers didnt take into account. We need to understand that there other religions besides Christianity (whether its Catholic, Baptist, etc) and we need to make accomodations for those people. No more "...under God" in the pledge of alegiance and no more "...in God we trust" on our money.