Keeping Church and State Seperate...

[FrontosaurusRex]

I was wondering where you were Nick. I used to be very close minded about homosexuality in high school. I played baseball and was mildly influenced by the guys on the team and homosexuality was unacceptable. Once i graduated and started seeing the world for what it is, I realized that my views on people and life were wrong. I even wrote a paper arguing that being gay was a choice for people. Later on down the road, I met gay people at work and in bars and realized that alot of gay people had no say in the matter. They were literally born that way. Thats not to say that some people dont choose, because i'm sure there are people that wake up one day and think, "i wonder what thats like" and love it.
Anyway, Randall said that you cant truly be sorry for being gay because you live as a homosexual ever single day of your life. If thats true, do you (Randall) honestly feel sorry every time you sleep with your girlfriend out of wedlock? I'm not judging you because I had a child and I'm not technically married. I'm also not picking on you Randall but you were the only one bold enough to ask that question.
For what its worth Nick, from my knowledge of the Christian bible, you wont be going to hell because you're gay. From the little bit that I know of you, you seem like a kind person who cares about people and loves animals. I've never seen you be mean to anybody or judge anybody openly. I've never heard a negative word out of your mouth. I dont see you openly breaking the law or intentionally trying to hurt others. Thats a whole lot more than what I can say for most of the people on this thread claiming to be so "religious".

[thekarens]

There's a time in my life when I would have been offended by the "how can you be gay and Christian" comment, but I've long since gotten past that. You can argue that the Bible says you can't be gay all day long and I will still disagree. People have translated the Bible to say whatever they want. But, if you're truly interested in how I could be both gay and Christian read this http://www.godmademegay.com/ and for the record, it was written by a white, straight Baptist minister.

Oh and for the record, I'm not sorry and I don't believe God expects me to be sorry for who I am. You and whoever can argue all day long and I KNOW that God is fine with me just as is. My pastor growing up had a saying that I love. He said, "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument." I've experienced God as a gay person and I've experienced his love and acceptance of who I am and no one can take that away from me.

[thekarens]

Whether the words separation of church and state are written, the spirit of those words are there and it should be followed. I grew up in a church that believed Catholics were going to hell because they are idol worshippers. You can't and shouldn't mix church and state because who is going to decide what church and what beliefs?

[Mzungu]

But it is YOUR bible. Its not mine. I dont recognize it as truth. There are several bibles by the way. The Jews have the Torah, the Hindu have the Arya Sathya Vedam and Satanists have The Satanic Bible. None of those are MY bible either.

The reason I dont move, is because this is where I live. While I will openly say that this country disgusts me, it is a million times better than most others.

I didn't say anything about recognizing it as truth. I just said that it's a book, which I why I grouped it with other well-known books. The particular Bible you're speaking of when you say "your bible" is the Christian Bible, Old and New Testament, correct? I know almost every religion has a "Bible." I'm just saying that it's a representative of a certain attitude/opinion in your posts that detracts from some of the things that you're saying because by using that one little word, you're almost being...antagonistic, and when a post is antagonistic at first, it's hard to take the intelligent things said as seriously as intended.

But thanks for answering my question about living here - that's kind of what I thought, but was sincerely just wondering if those who tend to complain a lot (me included!) would rather live somewhere else. I don't think I would.

I feel like I'm being attacked in a very passive aggressive way from the Christians on this site. I never once said that you guys were wrong or that you were crazy for following your religion. Every time I open my mouth about how I feel on the subject, you guys are trying to justify your beliefs. That right there shows me that you dont fully understand or believe in your bible either.

I don't think you're being attacked. I just think that it's a subject about which people feel VERY strongly, and therefore feel the need to defend their point of view, just as you do. I won't go into that, though, because this thread's about Church and State, and I've already gone waaay off topic!

[thekarens]

And for all of you out there that would like to judge gays how many of you had sex before you were married or lived with your girlfriend/boyfriend before you were married? How many of you have been divorced? All of those things are sin in the Bible and yet society has made it acceptable to some people want to make it acceptable for Christians, but still exclude gays.

If Christians truly followed the Bible they would let gays into their churches without trying to change them. If they/we need changing God is perfectly capable of doing it without anyone else's help.

[geoff_tropheus]

Sin is sin no matter how you look at it. To be forgiven of it, you must repent, ask for forgiveness, and forgive even yourself. Does not matter if this is sexual imorality (any sex with with anyone other than your spouse, this include yourself), murder, theft, cursing & swearing, false witness, and all the other 10. Jesus sad his one great commandment is that you love the LORD your God, and love your neighbor as yourself. The hardest thing in life is humility to be able to do so. All you can do is pray, and hope one day will come where you can find it to ask and forgive yourself.

Some people will never do so, and being so will be putting themselves at risk. Jesus said in his fable of the lost sheep, that he loves just as much or more the lost sheep that strayed from the flock and then came back, as those that always stayed in the flock.

No one on this Earth can be the judge only he will. Any sin in your life puts that judgement at risk. Forever is a long time, but "by the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you will return." The dead have no conscious...

God loves all that he has created, it is up to us to love or reject him.

[geoff_tropheus]

sorry for all the rambling on and off topic stuff, but this is the lounge and that is rather custom in these threads.

[CichlidFan]

I don't believe any apologies are necessary sir....

CF

[thekarens]

Sin is sin no matter how you look at it. To be forgiven of it, you must repent, ask for forgiveness, and forgive even yourself. Does not matter if this is sexual imorality (any sex with with anyone other than your spouse, this include yourself), murder, theft, cursing & swearing, false witness, and all the other 10. Jesus sad his one great commandment is that you love the LORD your God, and love your neighbor as yourself. The hardest thing in life is humility to be able to do so. All you can do is pray, and hope one day will come where you can find it to ask and forgive yourself.

Some people will never do so, and being so will be putting themselves at risk. Jesus said in his fable of the lost sheep, that he loves just as much or more the lost sheep that strayed from the flock and then came back, as those that always stayed in the flock.

No one on this Earth can be the judge only he will. Any sin in your life puts that judgement at risk. Forever is a long time, but "by the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you will return." The dead have no conscious...

God loves all that he has created, it is up to us to love or reject him.

Geoff, I both like and respect you and I even understand where you are coming from, but preaching on the boards and quoting scripture will drive people away. It's not going to change anyone's mind. If you want to change people you live what you preach. That's what will draw people to God. If they want to know about scripture they will ask.

[CichlidFan]

I disagree, I don't mind a little gospel preached at me.....anywhere anytime, I for one, dont' believe we hear enough of it anymore, but that's just me.....

Now if all he did was quote the bible and talk of parabels, yeah that would get old, but in todays society were sex and violence is the norm on TV and in just about any form of illustration avaialbe, I believe a little love goes a long way.....

BTW....still love you karens, and respects you too....

CF

[thekarens]

I wasn't referring to you Steve. I was referring to non-Christians. Preaching and quoting scripture isn't going to change minds. As far as I go he's preaching to the choir and not saying anything I don't already know, though I don't agree on every point.

[CichlidFan]

I understand .....my point was merely to encourage geoff, to speak freely, just as Traci has invited us to do here in this new sub forum. I appreciate his point and comments as well as yours'.....my only difference of opinion, the right words, spoken at the right time, can change lives.....as I see it....but again, that is just me...smiles.


CF

[thekarens]

Would you feel the same way though if he was quoting the Quran or the Budhist teachings? Do you believe that would influence someone to become Muslim or Budhist or do you appreciate it because you already agree with him and his beliefs?

[ImaGuyGeek]

Whether the words separation of church and state are written,

Again, it is not "Whether the words separation of church and state are written" or not because it is an indisputable fact that they are not written anywhere in the founding documents. Can we at least agree on this fact?

the spirit of those words are there and it should be followed.

I think we agree here? The "Establishment Clause" is found in the First Amendment. The "spirit" of that clause I think we agree on as well which is the following...

The Founding Fathers did not want a national religion.

However, they did not intend or even imply the current perverted interpretation of no Christianity being allowed in any publicly funded facility or by any public employee. This is an agenda (being pushed by extremeists) not a written policy. I.E. the difference between an "Agenda" vs "Policy"


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The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Together with the Free Exercise Clause ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are commonly said as the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.

The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another. The first approach is called the "separation" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferential" or "accommodation" interpretation. The accommodation interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.

The clause itself was seen as a reaction to the Church of England, established as the official church of England and some of the colonies, during the colonial era.

***********

I grew up in a church that believed Catholics were going to hell because they are idol worshippers.

I'm sure that created some difficulty reconciling that as a young adult. I am sorry to hear that. I know some of the early childhood experiences I had in church caused me as a young adult to question my faith and resulted in my experimenting with other religions before I came to realize that my issues were church specific and not issues with Christianity itself. It was a good experience in the end because it resulted in my knowledge of other religions and I approached my relationship with God in a new and refreshed way. But still very confusing.

You can't and shouldn't mix church and state because who is going to decide what church and what beliefs?

I think this statement is referring back to the First Amendment and if so, we are in agreement.

So, all of this said (or typed) I am certainly hoping you are taking this as it's intended. As a honest open discussion on History and facts. I'm in NO way trying to be a butt nor was I in other posts. Traci has accused me once or twice :) of being just slightly too literal. I have also been told that I can come across as condescending or abrasive. I personally don't see it but hey, I have to take others opinions into consideration (that was more of my dry humor).

I truly am interested in your feedback on this post as well as the Founding Fathers issue we have been discussing. You may not have noticed but this is a topic I really enjoy discussing and I am always interested in other opinions and new information on the subject.

[myjohnson]

Thomas Jefferson was a bad@$$!

I wise I could be more like him.