Keeping Church and State Seperate...

[geoff_tropheus]

It only matters what's in red.

[paranoid1123]

Keeping Church and State Seperate...

The thing that get me the most about religion is that If I was to say I talk to god. No one would belive me. But if I wrote a book and put the word of god in RED then I would get persicuted. If you really belive in your religion you would belive everyone that said that god talks to them. But insted you wait untill some preacher, priest, or pope tells you it is ok. Nobody thinks for themselfs. And i hate the religious belief "if you don't think like me then you are wrong and Its my duty to make you think like me. If you force yur beliefs on some one else you are inslaveing the. Maybe not physcaly but mentialy. And anytime you inslave someone it is wrong. There is no way to prove there is a god. That dose not mean there isn't one. And just becouse a book has red letters dosent mean you should live your life acording to it's rules. How do you know god wants you to do what a bunch of power hungry old MEN wrote in a book?

[Darbex]

I am sorry then either you ran into the wrong people or you really havent gotten to know the religion(s). I am perfectly capable of thinking for myself and I dont need a preacher or pope to tell me if anything is ok. I listen to my pastor to help give me guidance on the direction to take when adversity comes my way.

[paranoid1123]

I was a chaplins assst. in the air force for 4 years i got all the religion i could handle.

[Darbex]

I am not trying to talk down to anyone but when people make that type of comment that doesnt mean anything. Because you were around it doesnt mean you "learned" it. Or understand it for that matter. I have been studying/practicing accounting for almost 10 years and have been working intimately with auditors for 5 years yet I still dont understand auditing and is the only part of the CPA test that I did not pass on my first try. So\ I have gotten my fair share of auditing and I still havent "learned" it. I think its incredibly rediculous to label all christians as this or that or to say that they dont know how to think for themselves. That is no different then a racist saying that all black people are lazy and ignorant. Or all asians are smart and have small *****. Oh wait that part is true. Kidding but you get my point. A few dont make a whole. As I said I consider myself to be a christian and I can think for myself and I dont "force" my religion on anyone. I will be more than happy to share my thoughts but if you dont want to listen or still dont believe then thats your right.

[myjohnson]

I believe in the force.

I worship the little green short dude with pointy ears.

He is awesome!

[marauder_77868]

Whether or not you like Christianity, believe in God, or subscribe to another religion or none at all, the fact remains that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values and principles. Those same principles are the basis for everything this country has achieved. Separation of church and state is a phrase often clung to by those who want to undermine the underpinnings of our Constitution and our society. It is also an ill-conceived interpretation of what the framers intended. Many of those same framers predicted and feared the ills which have beset our society today. They tried to write a document which not only gave freedom, but also was clear to anyone who chose to read it. The pertinent passages were not designed to create a country based on agnosticism, but were designed so that all men would have the ability to be free from persecution of their respective religious beliefs. This was an issue that arose because of that same sort of religious persecution that they themselves had faced. The decision to use Judeo-Christian principles and mores was in an effort to incorporate a set of beliefs that was tolerant of others, as they believed (rightly so) that those mores were most in line with what they thought necessary to bring about this society. Those same principles give everyone the opportunity to change the constitution and our society. No other set of principles, today or in their time, would allow that change short of open warfare.

Now, while I hope the above is on topic, I find myself wanting to digress a bit to address some of the other slightly off-topic issues which have arisen. First, that evolution is a fact, or even a theory for that matter. Let me point out that a theory requires much evidence. A hypothesis is, essentially, an educated guess that one must bolster with a great deal of evidence to graduate to being a theory. Think on this please. The world has a truly mind boggling population. We have achieved scientific progress which is truly stunning. We have sent men to the moon, exploratory vehicles to other planets, and probes to objects like comets. I heard once, about 20 years ago that if we had aimed an ICBM at a pitcher’s mound on a ball field in Iraq, halfway around the globe, that there was something like a 98% chance that it would hit somewhere in the infield. Computers help run our lives and technology today is generally something that could not even have been fathomed 100 years ago. So, with all this incredible technical ability, the scientific world gets excited still when we find ONE possible link to support their hypothesis. If we can do all these things, surely we must literally be able to find mountains of evidence to support this hypothesis. But no, when we find an abnormal skeleton, the scientific world is so excited that they send it on museum tours. That the earth shows signs of a massive flood in the time when Noah, according to the timeline presented in the Bible, is whitewashed. There is an effort to push evolution by the scientific community, so much so that if it were really true we should have far more evidence by now. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in micro-evolution. We can see that by simply looking at the Tropheus species of Lake Tanganyika. But to take an incredibly low amount of evidence found thus far and push macro-evolution (that everything evolved from a single organism) as scientific fact is not only wrong, it is propaganda.

On to another topic now. The nature of man is sin. Sin is sin and is all deserving of the same punishment. To say that Christianity is responsible for many ills in the world is somewhat disingenuous. The principles of Christianity do not teach the lessons that have led some Christians to do very un-Christianlike things. To blame a whole religion for the actions of some who have strayed from its core beliefs is, at best, incorrect and, at worst, an attack on those beliefs. If a religion teaches violence, the subjugation of people, forced conversions, and the like, I can understand condemning the religion. But before seeing something like an entire religion as harmful, it would be best to consider the tenets of that religion rather than the actions of those who do not seem to be well representing those tenets, unless your purpose is intentional misrepresentation for the purpose of giving a particular religion a negative image.

I am intentionally skipping over what has been said about the issue of homosexuality and my beliefs and how they are related to Judeo-Christian values. Some of my best friends are homosexual. I do not wish to engage in the incredible problem that it would create, especially in this forum, by addressing this issue in a collective way. I will say that if you are a Christian and wish to educate yourself a bit, read I Corinthians Chapter 6.

Now, finally, to the issue of the Bible, its interpretation and use, and those who have misused it. It has been said that the Bible has been translated in such a way as to achieve certain goals. While I am certain that has happened from time to time, it is by no means commonplace. The corrupt men who used the power of the church to their advantage had very little to gain by translating the Bible in a manner to their liking. The great majority of the populace at the time of most of the translations was illiterate. That some men without the morals of Christian teaching in their hearts used the Bible as their authority is unquestionable. But the truth is that they would have done that no matter what the translation said. They were lying to people and it really didn’t matter if they were holding a true and correct copy in hand. The masses had no choice to believe them. I really don’t want to get into an in depth discussion of this issue as its very complicated. Let it suffice to say that back in my more scholarly days that I have translated the Bible from both the Latin and the ancient Greek, so my opinions are not ill conceived. Again, the nature of man is sin…ALL men. This includes everyone who has ever been in any position of authority with the Church, so it is not hard to see how a whole religion could gain a black eye because of the actions of some.

Ok…I’m bracing myself.

[myjohnson]

When are you starting on your book?

[marauder_77868]

I thought I just did...lol

[thekarens]

I don't see why you should have to brace yourself. People can agree with your opinions or disagree with them same as everyone else's that have been posted here.

[marauder_77868]

Hopefully its unnecessary...a new kinder, gentler HFB.

[ImaGuyGeek]

Whether or not you like Christianity...

Ok…I’m bracing myself.

Awesome post. +1 for everything you said.

[Darbex]

+2

[myjohnson]

- 100 million b/c I can't understand it.

Too many big words.

[wesleydnunder]

Whether or not you like Christianity, believe in God, or subscribe to another religion or none at all, the fact remains that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values and principles. Those same principles are the basis for everything this country has achieved. Separation of church and state is a phrase often clung to by those who want to undermine the underpinnings of our Constitution and our society. It is also an ill-conceived interpretation of what the framers intended. Many of those same framers predicted and feared the ills which have beset our society today. They tried to write a document which not only gave freedom, but also was clear to anyone who chose to read it. The pertinent passages were not designed to create a country based on agnosticism, but were designed so that all men would have the ability to be free from persecution of their respective religious beliefs. This was an issue that arose because of that same sort of religious persecution that they themselves had faced. The decision to use Judeo-Christian principles and mores was in an effort to incorporate a set of beliefs that was tolerant of others, as they believed (rightly so) that those mores were most in line with what they thought necessary to bring about this society. Those same principles give everyone the opportunity to change the constitution and our society. No other set of principles, today or in their time, would allow that change short of open warfare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_religion

Now, while I hope the above is on topic, I find myself wanting to digress a bit to address some of the other slightly off-topic issues which have arisen. First, that evolution is a fact, or even a theory for that matter. Let me point out that a theory requires much evidence. A hypothesis is, essentially, an educated guess that one must bolster with a great deal of evidence to graduate to being a theory. Think on this please. The world has a truly mind boggling population. We have achieved scientific progress which is truly stunning. We have sent men to the moon, exploratory vehicles to other planets, and probes to objects like comets. I heard once, about 20 years ago that if we had aimed an ICBM at a pitcher’s mound on a ball field in Iraq, halfway around the globe, that there was something like a 98% chance that it would hit somewhere in the infield. Computers help run our lives and technology today is generally something that could not even have been fathomed 100 years ago. So, with all this incredible technical ability, the scientific world gets excited still when we find ONE possible link to support their hypothesis. If we can do all these things, surely we must literally be able to find mountains of evidence to support this hypothesis. But no, when we find an abnormal skeleton, the scientific world is so excited that they send it on museum tours. That the earth shows signs of a massive flood in the time when Noah, according to the timeline presented in the Bible, is whitewashed. There is an effort to push evolution by the scientific community, so much so that if it were really true we should have far more evidence by now. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in micro-evolution. We can see that by simply looking at the Tropheus species of Lake Tanganyika. But to take an incredibly low amount of evidence found thus far and push macro-evolution (that everything evolved from a single organism) as scientific fact is not only wrong, it is propaganda.

In Genesis the entire world was covered with water so that no dry land was visible above it. Had that happened, and please show me this evidence you have for this, current sea levels would have been something like 7 miles below the surface of the flood waters. This much pressure would have killed every life form on land and in the ocean that much fresh water would have wiped out all corals, other inverts and many other SW aquatic life forms.

On to another topic now. The nature of man is sin. Sin is sin and is all deserving of the same punishment. To say that Christianity is responsible for many ills in the world is somewhat disingenuous. The principles of Christianity do not teach the lessons that have led some Christians to do very un-Christianlike things. To blame a whole religion for the actions of some who have strayed from its core beliefs is, at best, incorrect and, at worst, an attack on those beliefs. If a religion teaches violence, the subjugation of people, forced conversions, and the like, I can understand condemning the religion. But before seeing something like an entire religion as harmful, it would be best to consider the tenets of that religion rather than the actions of those who do not seem to be well representing those tenets, unless your purpose is intentional misrepresentation for the purpose of giving a particular religion a negative image.

...and this punishment takes place in God's own personal torture chamber? ... for all eternity?

I am intentionally skipping over what has been said about the issue of homosexuality and my beliefs and how they are related to Judeo-Christian values. Some of my best friends are homosexual. I do not wish to engage in the incredible problem that it would create, especially in this forum, by addressing this issue in a collective way. I will say that if you are a Christian and wish to educate yourself a bit, read I Corinthians Chapter 6.

Sin is sin and is all deserving of the same punishment...

Sorry, you can't have it both ways, Charles.

Now, finally, to the issue of the Bible, its interpretation and use, and those who have misused it. It has been said that the Bible has been translated in such a way as to achieve certain goals. While I am certain that has happened from time to time, it is by no means commonplace. The corrupt men who used the power of the church to their advantage had very little to gain by translating the Bible in a manner to their liking. The great majority of the populace at the time of most of the translations was illiterate. That some men without the morals of Christian teaching in their hearts used the Bible as their authority is unquestionable. But the truth is that they would have done that no matter what the translation said. They were lying to people and it really didn’t matter if they were holding a true and correct copy in hand. The masses had no choice to believe them. I really don’t want to get into an in depth discussion of this issue as its very complicated. Let it suffice to say that back in my more scholarly days that I have translated the Bible from both the Latin and the ancient Greek, so my opinions are not ill conceived. Again, the nature of man is sin…ALL men. This includes everyone who has ever been in any position of authority with the Church, so it is not hard to see how a whole religion could gain a black eye because of the actions of some.

Ok…I’m bracing myself.

Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicea...
Torquemada...
Persecution of the Mormons...
Salem...
Pedophile priests...

Mark