Keeping Church and State Seperate...

[gotticgs]

I believe in the force.

I worship the little green short dude with pointy ears.

He is awesome!

I crack my self up sometimes

[Darbex]

Is that bottle under the bed for the reason I think it is?

[gotticgs]

that aint no bottle thats for damn sure )

[Nickintex]

Sin is sin and is all deserving of the same punishment...

I here, I'm queer, get used to it!

[wesleydnunder]

I here, I'm queer, get the hell over it!

Nick, you have to know that the quote was not directed at you or any other gays. It was directed at what I considered someone contradicting himself in an earlier post. I consider you a friend and brother and I should give two sh_ts who you or anyone else sleeps with.

Mark

[marauder_77868]

Mark....

There is a certain element of faith that will always be involved. I can provide links to scientific evidence and hypotheses and theories which are just as well documented as evolution, if not more so. That's not the point. If you have a bias against religion or more specifically, Christianity, no amount of proof would be satisfactory and I'd rather not get into an "ok...here's my latest" sort of contest. I'm not trying to have things both ways. I'm sure there are people you know who remain friends who have done something contrary to your belief system. For them to continue being your friends you do not need them to change their actions, but, by that same logic you won't necessarily be changing your value system for them or to match theirs either. That's why I'm not going to get on this forum and globally decry anything or anyone. God is the judge of what is and is not sin. I am not the judge. But neither is anyone else here on earth and it seems that the "anti-Christianity" crowd is trying to do just that. We do have the responsibilty and, indeed, the mandate to make judgments however. We are within our rights to judge the values taught to our children and to protect those we love from harm. That is where any moral authority arises. I would expect you to make those same judgments for your children and other loved ones, and, as an extension of that, attempt to shape the society in which they live to reflect your own personal values. And the decisions of society, as a whole, will never be unanimous. It will never be unoffensive to someone. There will always be a constant struggle. But it is the Judeo-Christian principles upon which the society was founded which allow that struggle to proceed as painlessly as possible. It is those same principles which provide all of us the framework with which to criticize those very same principles. That I don't want to offend individuals as much as possible is not a measure of political tolerance or political correctness. It is a desire based upon those very same Judeo-Christian principles which seem to be so under attack. Maintaining civility and love for my fellow man, regardless of his faults or what I perceive to be his faults, or any of my own faults for that matter, is an extension of my belief in those Judeo-Christian principles. Christians are not trying to institute a national religion. They are merely trying to maintain the principles and morals upon which this country was founded and have, thus far, made us the greatest and most prosperous nation on earth. They are defending the country they believe in and understand that the attack on Christianity is essentially an attack on our founding principles.

[wesleydnunder]

Mark....

There is a certain element of faith that will always be involved. I can provide links to scientific evidence and hypotheses and theories which are just as well documented as evolution, if not more so. That's not the point. If you have a bias against religion or more specifically, Christianity, no amount of proof would be satisfactory and I'd rather not get into an "ok...here's my latest" sort of contest. I'm not trying to have things both ways. I'm sure there are people you know who remain friends who have done something contrary to your belief system. For them to continue being your friends you do not need them to change their actions, but, by that same logic you won't necessarily be changing your value system for them or to match theirs either. That's why I'm not going to get on this forum and globally decry anything or anyone. God is the judge of what is and is not sin. I am not the judge. But neither is anyone else here on earth and it seems that the "anti-Christianity" crowd is trying to do just that. We do have the responsibilty and, indeed, the mandate to make judgments however. We are within our rights to judge the values taught to our children and to protect those we love from harm. That is where any moral authority arises. I would expect you to make those same judgments for your children and other loved ones, and, as an extension of that, attempt to shape the society in which they live to reflect your own personal values. And the decisions of society, as a whole, will never be unanimous. It will never be unoffensive to someone. There will always be a constant struggle. But it is the Judeo-Christian principles upon which the society was founded which allow that struggle to proceed as painlessly as possible. It is those same principles which provide all of us the framework with which to criticize those very same principles. That I don't want to offend individuals as much as possible is not a measure of political tolerance or political correctness. It is a desire based upon those very same Judeo-Christian principles which seem to be so under attack. Maintaining civility and love for my fellow man, regardless of his faults or what I perceive to be his faults, or any of my own faults for that matter, is an extension of my belief in those Judeo-Christian principles. Christians are not trying to institute a national religion. They are merely trying to maintain the principles and morals upon which this country was founded and have, thus far, made us the greatest and most prosperous nation on earth. They are defending the country they believe in and understand that the attack on Christianity is essentially an attack on our founding principles.

Sorry if you felt my post was an attack of any kind, Charles. I don't have a bias against Christianity or any religion. I just don't believe them.

Sometimes it irks the hell out of me to see my tax dollars being spent toward organizations which are tax exempt and are growing richer by the day. No one has ever been able to tell me why Joel Osteen and Robert Tilton shouldn't have to pay taxes. They love the country so much, let's see them ante up like the rest of us...and not just them personally, but also the churches/ministries they front.

Some folks really get their back fur up over putting plaques of the ten commandments in front of city hall. I don't care...put 'em up. Just don't make me pay for 'em. The churches pay no taxes, let them donate plaques to go in front of government buildings.

Your generality that Christians aren't trying to institue a national religion is true for some. Others would love nothing more than to see every American safely in the fold. Many see it as their mandate from God to preach to everyone who will listen, regardless of the listener's wishes in the matter. A national religion? Theocracy is not far behind and that scares me spitless. I'd rather tell a woman she's puttin' on weight.

Judeo-Christian principles...
Hmmmm, same ones that have had Protestants and Catholics killing each other for decades? Same ones that accompanied the genocide of indigenous peoples all over the planet? Same ones that have Christian missionaries in Africa teaching that it's not only OK, but their God-given duty to murder homosexuals? The list is long and ugly, all perpetrated by people who hold those principles so dear.

If my posts seem curt, it's that I have some issues, mostly with the people who espouse their piety so fiercely. They usually wind up being the ones who cheated on their spouse or got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

Mark

[myjohnson]

I crack my self up sometimes

That is awesome!

The force is strong in this one.

[gotticgs]

Rotflmao

[marauder_77868]

Judeo-Christian principles...
Hmmmm, same ones that have had Protestants and Catholics killing each other for decades? Same ones that accompanied the genocide of indigenous peoples all over the planet? Same ones that have Christian missionaries in Africa teaching that it's not only OK, but their God-given duty to murder homosexuals? The list is long and ugly, all perpetrated by people who hold those principles so dear.

No...and this is my point. Those people are not espousing those principles. They are not examples of what the principles are all about. But everyone that wants to attack Christianity holds them up as prime examples of Christianity. So, no, we are not talking about the same ones. But I very much understand the negativity because, and please understand that I'm not attempting to single you out, all the media focus is on tearing down Christianity. All the educational establishment is focsued on tearing down Christianity. The legal establishment (attorneys) are focused on tearing down those principles. In my thread posted earlier, "Comments please" I showed a prime example, which you commented upon, of another religion which IS a danger to our country. I would be surprised if you could find that clip, or any reference to it or its content on any major media outlet's website or tv/print/radio. And that's kind of the point I'm making. I see so many attacks on Christianity, direct and indirect, in all areas, but very little focus on a religion that has recently organized active attacks against us. And we are told that profiling is wrong and are told that Islam is a religion of peace. If it were a few crazies like the ones that give a black eye to Christians from time to time I could understand. But it's not. It's part of their dogma. It's part of the national spirit of countries ruled by that dogma through a theocracy. Mark...I greatly respect your ability through reason to express yourself. I truly wasn't trying to accuse you of bias, merely trying to frame a retort to your earlier post.

[nacra99]

I came across this today. Whatdda you guys think?

I'm not asking whether this is bogus simply because it is presented by a religious group. Or what their intent or agenda is.
I'm asking what you think of the claims made within the video.

http://www.citizenlink.org/videofeatures/A000012642.cfm

[wesleydnunder]

I don't see anything necessarily wrong with it as long as the same courtesy would be extended to non-Christian and non-religious groups.

Mark

[geoff_tropheus]

The Old Testament dates to 4,000 BC when the first evidence of writing and Civilization existed. People can argue about Creation stories, and floods, and whatnot, but no one can deny that around 33AD a man namned Jesus, claimned to be the Messiah, suffered massive punishment and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, was buried, and claimned to have risen from the dead. There are numerous written accounts of people who claim to have seen him, and ascend into Heaven. All but 1 of these people Died for that, they gave their lives, not because they believed in a creation story or a flood story, or even a Exodus story... They died because they SAW him. They knew it not as a story, but as truth.

A highly educated, and well off Roman Citizen, claimed this same man blinded him years later, and appeared to him. This changed his life, he gave up all the luxuries, to a life of suffering and all the others since then, he went from persecutor of this people, to being one of them. He too, gave his life, not because of a story, but for what he knew to be truth.

For the next 330 years, people gave their lives because of truth, first hand accounts, not stories or fables.

God's mysteries are revealed to us every day, and will keep doing so till the end of this age. The mysteries to the very minute,sub-atomic existance in quatum physics, to the grand scales of relativity of space and time are no different than Electricity, flight, and Atomic Power. Why would anyone consider Evolution, the Human Genome, or the Big Bang any different...

[geoff_tropheus]

Black or white?

Karen you are amazing woman, and friend. You totally made my day yesterday.

Thank you so very much for the small things. :)

[Fire_chair]

The Old Testament dates to 4,000 BC when the first evidence of writing and Civilization existed.

I saw an article recently saying that there might be proof that parts were written about 1500 years earlier than previously thought. That probably doesn't mean much for this discussion, but I thought it was interesting.