TSA's new security screenings

[Darbex]

Like I said the first part of the system is profiling the people that cause the attacks. Then you continue the process of questioning those individuals and if they fail the then they are then further screened. Very different than what is being proposed. While they may only have two international airports they have several other regional airports and are in the middle of an area that are full of people who would love to destroy them.

This was your quote:
"Cars are also individually owned and considered an extension of your person. That 767 you're about to share with 300+ other souls is not yours by extension. The TSA is considering security measures for bus-lines, ferries, and ships as we speak however."

So in response I said that a rental car is not an extension of you since it is not individually owned. My implied comment is does this mean they should be free to search a rental car.

[wesleydnunder]

I will ask for copies of my scan then offer to pay extra for the groping. I want to get my money's worth and ride both rides.

Right! I'm gonna take a Viagra first and really enjoy myself.

Mark

[wesleydnunder]

The question I posed earlier still hasn't been answered:

If the scans and pat-downs are out, what would you put in their place that will work?

Mark

[jeebus]

This was your quote:
"Cars are also individually owned and considered an extension of your person. That 767 you're about to share with 300+ other souls is not yours by extension. The TSA is considering security measures for bus-lines, ferries, and ships as we speak however."

So in response I said that a rental car is not an extension of you since it is not individually owned. My implied comment is does this mean they should be free to search a rental car.

The car you drive may not be yours, but per the court a car is an extension of your person as you are the operator of said vehicle, which is why you can carry a weapon in your car with out a CHL and why the police must get your permission to search your vehicle if there is no reasonable cause.

[Darbex]

Mark it has been posted. My idea which is actually just taken from the Israeli playbook is what I consider an acceptable alternative. Though it isnt without limitations its far less intrusive on the population and works. Also I mentioned that if the government simply did its job and followed intel debacles like the Christmas bomber would have never gotten on the plane.

[Darbex]

The car you drive may not be yours, but per the court a car is an extension of your person as you are the operator of said vehicle, which is why you can carry a weapon in your car with out a CHL and why the police must get your permission to search your vehicle if there is no reasonable cause.

Ok but yet per your argument they dont need a "reasonable" cause to search you before boarding an airplane or bus simply because its not an extension of you?

[jeebus]

The question I posed earlier still hasn't been answered:

If the scans and pat-downs are out, what would you put in their place that will work?

Mark

I say reverse it. Pat-downs for EVERYONE, scans optional. Those who don't want either are escorted off the property. The change doesn't need to be made in how its done, but by who does it. Put well paid, well trained, qualified individuals manning the security check points. Give them the latitude to "lightly pat-down" or just "visually inspect" low-risk flyers (grandparents, grandkids, soccer moms, etc.) and to give more aggressive detailed pat-downs to high-risk flyers. If after a pat-down the agent still feels like the person is a risk, send them through the scanner.

We should never take any class of person off the list as a possible terrorist as thats when a real terrorist will attempt to exploit that weakness. Everyone keeps screaming about how there's never been a granny that tried to blow up a plane, but let me give you this very basic and plausible scenario: We stop searching all senior citizen females, as grandmas are the least likely of a group to every be a terrorist. A terrorist then takes a family hostage in their home and tells the grandmother that she will smuggle X,Y,&Z on a plane and then give it to a sleeper on the plane. If she does not do this, or tells the authorities at the airport, he will murder her entire family and set the house on fire, etc.

Far fetched? Not in the least bit. The next time I fly, I fully expect to be patted down, groped, x-rayed, whatever. I also fully expect everyone else on that plane to be subject to that same treatment, short of the cockpit crew. I am sacrificing no rights as I am choosing to fly, I am purchasing a ticket, and by doing so, I'm agreeing to the terms set by the airlines, as regulated by the FAA and TSA.

[jeebus]

Ok but yet per your argument they dont need a "reasonable" cause to search you before boarding an airplane or bus simply because its not an extension of you?

Apples and Oranges.

Your vehicle is an extension of your person which is guaranteed privacy as defined by the 4th Amendment.

Your purchase of a ticket of a seat on an airplane comes with the stipulation that you must submit to a search if requested before boarding, starting from a predetermined search area all the way up to the seat on that plane. The TSA can not randomly search you outside of that area and/or at any time that they wish, because of the 4th amendment. Otherwise, don't you think the TSA would have been kicking in doors of suspected terrorists who pre-book flights a long time ago?

[Darbex]

In the nearly 40 years Israel has been doing their profiling and questioning system. How many grandmas or movie scenarios have happened on an Israeli airplane?

I respect you and your wifes desire to be fondled and molested but I do not want that for my family.

[Darbex]

You dont get it. You are saying well you are submitting to it by buying a ticket. But what I am trying to point out is that it shouldnt be that way fundamentally there is no difference between being searched on the side of a road and being searched at an airport gate. In both circumstances you are being searched without probable cause. So just because the TSA made it that way doesnt mean they havent broken our constitutional right. If the Harris county made it a provision when you registered your vehicle that you now allow the police to search you to make sure you are not transporting chemicals to blow up a building. That doesnt make it now ok because it was put in writing and posted on a website. Its wrong no matter what.

[BeefyG]

You all are going about it the wrong way. Upon check-in, hand each flyer a loaded gun. Upon leaving the plane, they all have to be handed back in. I'm sure this would solve the whole issue.

[wesleydnunder]

Mark it has been posted. My idea which is actually just taken from the Israeli playbook is what I consider an acceptable alternative. Though it isnt without limitations its far less intrusive on the population and works. Also I mentioned that if the government simply did its job and followed intel debacles like the Christmas bomber would have never gotten on the plane.

Sorry Brian... I skimmed it. I'd seen an interview with the Israeli head of security about their system. I think too many Americans would whine about profiling, as was pointed out... but I'm for it if it works.

Mark

[BeefyG]

Its sad that we as a country would rather protest over imagined insults (profiling - ok, not so imagined but logical) than be incensed by true violations of our dignity (unlawful searches). If I buy a ticket, I know I'm going to get groped and I'm not happy about it. I don't think its right but its something that has to be accepted with the current regulations. If this is the best the government can come up with to deal with the issue, I'm not sure if trying to get them to fix it will make it better. Seems like they need to spend the money on training and follow through with the people who are supposed to catch terrorist plots before they happen. IDK... I don't fly anywhere so I'm not that worried about it but feel like I should be...

[jeebus]

In the nearly 40 years Israel has been doing their profiling and questioning system. How many grandmas or movie scenarios have happened on an Israeli airplane?

Because EL AL operates as a secret police both inside AND outside their airports, we will never know. I will never be so naive to think that there has never be a radical muslim woman who did not participate in some sort of terrorist activity though. Neither should you, or anyone for that matter.

I respect you and your wifes desire to be fondled and molested but I do not want that for my family.

Wow. What a petty and shallow reply that serves nothing to defend your stance that TSA searches are a violation of the 4th amendment. At no point would that line be appropriate in any civilized debate. It seems this entire thread I have continually frustrated you in that I have successfully challenged every claim you've made that a person's 4th amendment rights are violated when flying.

So you've resorted to making the implication that I and my wife desire to be molested and fondled because I actually understand the meaning of the 4th amendment, that I realize that in a time of global terrorism we have fallen short off any utopian solution, and that I have refrained from allowing myself to jump on the nation bandwagon that somehow my constitutional rights have been infringed upon? To quote Guygeek: "That's weak."

I (or my wife) have no desire to be fondled or molested, nor do I have that desire for my family which is why we CHOOSE not to fly. However, if we do CHOOSE to fly we are fully aware of the system in place, and as much as we do not approve of it, we have made the CHOICE to fly, and thus understand the possible consequences of our CHOICE.

You dont get it. You are saying well you are submitting to it by buying a ticket. But what I am trying to point out is that it shouldnt be that way fundamentally there is no difference between being searched on the side of a road and being searched at an airport gate. In both circumstances you are being searched without probable cause. So just because the TSA made it that way doesnt mean they havent broken our constitutional right.

The key question to validate your point of view is to ask when you're forced to be searched: Is it ever outside of the TSA check-point that is only give to those who have voluntarily purchased tickets, voluntarily reported to the check point, and only before their flight is to occur? Do you feel at risk of a TSA search at this very moment? If you can prove that the TSA has ever forced someone to a search outside of that area, then you do indeed have valid point.

If the Harris county made it a provision when you registered your vehicle that you now allow the police to search you to make sure you are not transporting chemicals to blow up a building. That doesnt make it now ok because it was put in writing and posted on a website. Its wrong no matter what.

Since you provided the scenario, what would you suggest if we did become a society where car-bombings became prevalent?

[Darbex]

Not quite I have stated my point and rebutted your points. Its not petty when I feel that what they are doing is molesting people especially if you have read some of the reports in the news what the TSA agents are doing. You keep saying its fine so I respect your decision to be molested if that is your decision. And if you want to go out and start posting how you somehow bested me. Whatever I really dont care what your opinions are of what I said. I stand by them and I articulated what I thought and why the new processes are unconstitutional and I will allow the readers to decide for themselves which they prefer.