TSA's new security screenings

[Darbex]

"I actually understand the meaning of the 4th amendment," what you have argued does not show you understand the 4th amendment. And my solution is not a utopian solution so obviously you have been skimming for the key words you want to find so you can bash your point through. I will state it for the last time so we are all clear what I would like to see happen.

1. Get rid of the current proposal.
2. Implement the Israeli profiling system.
3. Add more air marshalls.

[Darbex]

"The key question to validate your point of view is to ask when you're forced to be searched: Is it ever outside of the TSA check-point that is only give to those who have voluntarily purchased tickets, voluntarily reported to the check point, and only before their flight is to occur? Do you feel at risk of a TSA search at this very moment? If you can prove that the TSA has ever forced someone to a search outside of that area, then you do indeed have valid point."

They havent because it hasnt gotten that far yet. Given time and the continued eroding of our rights its a matter of time before they will do this in other places.

"Since you provided the scenario, what would you suggest if we did become a society where car-bombings became prevalent?"

If this was the case then I would argue the same exact points above except the air marshalls.

[jeebus]

"I actually understand the meaning of the 4th amendment," what you have argued does not show you understand the 4th amendment. And my solution is not a utopian solution so obviously you have been skimming for the key words you want to find so you can bash your point through. I will state it for the last time so we are all clear what I would like to see happen.

1. Get rid of the current proposal.
2. Implement the Israeli profiling system.
3. Add more air marshalls.

Just to compile what I've skimmed over two pages: You think the TSA groping people is a violation of their 4th amendment rights, but the solution is to implement the EL AL system which is ten times as bad as what we have now in terms of privacy violations?

Not quite I have stated my point and rebutted your points. Its not petty when I feel that what they are doing is molesting people especially if you have read some of the reports in the news what the TSA agents are doing.

I have read many of the reports and have been very vocal about my opposition of their handling of the situation. That does not change the reality of whether those people have had their 4th amendment rights violated, as much as they have simply had their privacy violated. At best the first waves of travelers that were surprised to find the new scanners and pat-down procedures could lean on the 4th amendment as they were given no notification, either expressed or implied, that they would be searched - but even then, that's sketchy at best and will require a very liberal judge to interpret a ruling in their favor if that's their case for damages.

You keep saying its fine so I respect your decision to be molested if that is your decision. And if you want to go out and start posting how you somehow bested me. Whatever I really dont care what your opinions are of what I said. I stand by them and I articulated what I thought and why the new processes are unconstitutional and I will allow the readers to decide for themselves which they prefer.

You obviously care enough to have replied.

If this was the case then I would argue the same exact points above except the air marshalls.

And you would be correct, as vehicles are extension of a person, and thus granted the same protections listed in the 4th amendment.

[Darbex]

The difference between the Israeli system and the TSA is, the TSA starts by sending you through a scanner taking and storing pictures of your body through your clothes. If you fail or you decline the screening then you will be physically searched by an agent. Then you will be asked questions and all of this is done randomly. So there could be a person that fits a description of a terrorist and he could theoretically get passed up for a 13 year old since its random. The Israeli system is to first profile the subjects so in the above example the first person would be pulled aside and asked several questions passing up the 13 year old. If the subject fails to the questioning, they are then scanned by a machine that does not take full nude pictures and/or searched. Also they follow through with vital intel from their CIA equivalent.

There is a stark difference whereas the most useful time and effort is spent on the most probable individual. Also whereas the TSA starts with the most intrusive form the Israeli starts with the least intrusive and progresses depending upon your ability to satisfy their concerns.

[jeebus]

The difference between the Israeli system and the TSA is, the TSA starts by sending you through a scanner taking and storing pictures of your body through your clothes. If you fail or you decline the screening then you will be physically searched by an agent. Then you will be asked questions and all of this is done randomly. So there could be a person that fits a description of a terrorist and he could theoretically get passed up for a 13 year old since its random. The Israeli system is to first profile the subjects so in the above example the first person would be pulled aside and asked several questions passing up the 13 year old. If the subject fails to the questioning, they are then scanned by a machine that does not take full nude pictures and/or searched. Also they follow through with vital intel from their CIA equivalent.

There is a stark difference whereas the most useful time and effort is spent on the most probable individual. Also whereas the TSA starts with the most intrusive form the Israeli starts with the least intrusive and progresses depending upon your ability to satisfy their concerns.

How would it work here in the United States where there are over forty thousand commercial flights daily, without a massive undertaking of surveillance on the back-end? I think that's why we have what we have, most intrusive to least intrusive, because we don't have the resources to profile so many people before their flight without a seriously turning a blind-eye to what little existing privacy we still have.

[Darbex]

I don't believe that we couldn't do that. As it had been you have to go through a checkpoint where they check your ID. At that point based on predetermined criteria those agents choose people that fit those criterias to be questioned in another area and screened as necessary. Just because we have more cities doesnt mean each airport can't do the same checks that each airport in Israel does. It would simply mean we would have more practice.

[Darbex]

Nick post your article from Facebook. That is priceless.

[Darbex]

Since he won't post it

Man arrested after ejaculating during TSA pat-down
November 21, 2010 by Dead Serious News · Leave a Comment
A 47 year old gay man was arrested at San Francisco International Airport after ejaculating while being patted down by a male TSA agent. Percy Cummings, an interior designer from San Francisco, is being held without bail after the alleged incident, charged with sexually assaulting a Federal agent.
According to Cummings’ partner, Sergio Armani, Cummings has “multiple piercings on his manhood” which were detected during a full body scan. As a result, Cummings was pulled aside for a pat-down. Armani stated that the unidentified TSA agent spent “an inordinate amount of time groping” Cummings, who had apparently become sexually aroused. Cummings, who has a history of sexual dysfunction, ejaculated while the TSA agent’s hand was feeling the piercings. The TSA agent, according to several witnesses, promptly called for back up. Cummings was thrown to the ground and handcuffed.
A TSA spokesperson declined to comment on this specifc case, but said that anyone ejaculating during a pat-down would be subject to arrest.

[Darbex]

That's messed up the TSA agent should be arrested for jacking him off in public. Or just let him have his happy ending and move on.

[CichlidFan]

Gives new meaning to "fly the friendly skies" .....smiles.

Come on everybody...sing with me......"I"m leavin on a jet plane....."

CF

[imagirlgeek]

Jeebus - since you don't consider it a violation of your 4th amendment rights because you are voluntarily purchasing a ticket to fly....what if you start having to go through the same process to enter a courthouse? I mean, I don't know the details, like if you can opt-out of these or not, but if you are called for Jury Duty or something, I can't imagine they would take kindly to someone refusing to enter the courthouse. What I'm saying is that it no longer becomes a choice. Note: I'm not picking a fight, just curious what your take is on this.

Full-body scanners popping up at courthouses

[jeebus]

Jeebus - since you don't consider it a violation of your 4th amendment rights because you are voluntarily purchasing a ticket to fly....what if you start having to go through the same process to enter a courthouse? I mean, I don't know the details, like if you can opt-out of these or not, but if you are called for Jury Duty or something, I can't imagine they would take kindly to someone refusing to enter the courthouse. What I'm saying is that it no longer becomes a choice. Note: I'm not picking a fight, just curious what your take is on this.

Full-body scanners popping up at courthouses

Just for the record, I have not had a fighting frame of mind this entire thread! I just feel the issue has been mislabeled by a certain portion of the public and the news media has ran with it because its the most sensationalized version they could run.

If you are ordered somewhere by the government, and they do conduct a search, then YES, that would be against your 4th amendment rights. No argument there. That would be a case that I would think you could base on the 4th amendment, and win - as you had no choice to the search, other than incarceration.

[imagirlgeek]

Just for the record, I have not had a fighting frame of mind this entire thread! I just feel the issue has been mislabeled by a certain portion of the public and the news media has ran with it because its the most sensationalized version they could run.

If you are ordered somewhere by the government, and they do conduct a search, then YES, that would be against your 4th amendment rights. No argument there. That would be a case that I would think you could base on the 4th amendment, and win - as you had no choice to the search, other than incarceration.

I didn't think you had been in a fighting frame of mind, I was just making sure my tone wasn't hard to read.

[CichlidFan]

There's a good chance if we finally accept the scanners, we'll see them at train stations and other mass transportation depots as well....you know someone's making bank off of them....and I'm sure they will be pushed into other area's of population events as well.....nevermind the massive dose of radiation though....just keep drinking the floride coolaid....

CF

[Darbex]

"If you are ordered somewhere by the government, and they do conduct a search, then YES, that would be against your 4th amendment rights."

This is where I think we differ in opinions. I believe that I am being ordered to be searched. Yes I am voluntarily purchasing a ticket to fly to wherever, but that should not be attached to an ordered search of my person. My opinion of where I will give up some freedoms in this realm is the security check points. I remember when you used to be able to go to the airport gate without a ticket. I was fine with not allowing that and only allowing you go up to the checkpoint without a ticket but anything after that is encroaching to far.