Lost one & two MIA

[Lairdc76]

I bought 6 African cichlids about two months ago and today I found one at the bottom of the tank. The other two I have no idea where they might be. I went ahead and test the water. 0 ppm on ammonia and 7.6 ph. The 7.6 ph is the highest on the test kit I have. Do I need to be testing for something else? Or get a higher ph tester? Thanks.

• 55g 16 Africans, 2 plecos, a catfish & a snail.
• 2 filters, aquaclear 50 & I think a aqua-tech 30-60
• Temp is at 80
• They are fed 3 times a day from an auto feeder.
• Not sure what other info you might need.

[cichlidomaha]

It was more than likely due to aggression, If you have any opening on the tank the other may have jumped out, If you have a dog or cat they could have ate it after it jumped from the tank. I have had that happen before. It could also have got eaten by the other fish after dying or getting killed. If it was a small enough fish the bones would be too small to even Notice.

Good Luck! Fish can be downright cannibals from time to time.

Thomas

[morpheus]

There are high range pH test kits that start at 7.4 and go upward. you can find them at any aquarium department in petsmart, petco, specialty shops, etc. the pH you have is fine for africans. many species of cichlids, no matter what region, prefer higher pH levels. i have seen them kept in tanks at 8.2 range and they still thrive.

some test kits also come with tests for nitrites and nitrates. these two also are toxins in the water which can contribute to stress/death. it is also not a bad idea to get a water hardness test kit too which is for KH (carbonate hardness) and GH (general hardness). water hardness will determine how easily pH can swing in the tank. the harder the water, the more resistant the pH is to moving

my cichlid tank is usually around 80-82F and i only feed mine once a day (i have a 55g thats more of a cube shape with less fish than yours).

With your ammonia reading at 0ppm, you are not overcrowded in terms of bio load.

what type of 55g do you have? is it a standard longer size or a more custom shape like a cube? going with the previous poster, africans are territorial. especially during times when they are looking for spawning partners. larger groups can curb aggression, but each cichlid stakes out its own territory. when you introduce new fish after all spaces are taken up, there can be issues. also the size of the fish being introduced compared to established fish can cause smaller ones to be picked on. longer tanks give more real estate so to speak for each fish to have an area, as well as more lateral space to get away when chased. cichlids are used to environments with many hiding places in the wild (rocks, branches, etc).

most likely, the fish died from aggression. turn out any ornaments that have caves to see if any debris or the fish are in there hiding (or dead). a carcas will grow fungus within a day or two and possibly infect others in the tank. the catfish, plecos and snail will also eat a dead fish.

[mistahoo]

many species of cichlids, no matter what region, prefer higher pH levels. i have seen them kept in tanks at 8.2 range and they still thrive.

Geophagus, discus, severum, and other SA cichlids can be acclimated to high pH, but won't thrive in high pH. They prefer lower pH like their natural habitat.

Sent from my spaceship using Tapatalk 2.

[aquabee]

Geophagus, discus, severum, and other SA cichlids can be acclimated to high pH, but won't thrive in high pH. They prefer lower pH like their natural habitat.

Sent from my spaceship using Tapatalk 2.

Even if they're tank raised and bred in alkaline waters?


Sent from my iPhone by one of my fish

[JIM]

Good point aquabee, to be honest most fish you find in petco etc. have no clue what their native chemistry is, because they have never known it. Bred in whatever was available, fry raised the same way, and the local LFS mostly are on a system that no one that works there ever pays attention to or understands. Fish will acclimate if forced to, or in this case go unchecked until one day they turn up MIA.

[mnemenoi]

Many of the soft water fish can be acclimated to harder water, some of those can effectively breed in those conditions. Many do have difficulties though, especially in terms of reproductive ability. I think this is less about the breeding desire and more about the adaption of the species over millions of years to their natural soft water environment. In many cases their eggs have difficulty in harder water and are more prone to fungus, bacterial attack, ect. Many SA and SE Asian soft water low Ph fish have adapted eggs that need that lower Ph as bacteria have strong difficulty survivg in anything under a 6.0 and lower. When thus bred in higher range, their eggs tend to foul and breeding can be far more difficult. I have a suspicion the more difficult ones have unknowingly evolved a different protein layer to their eggs that are not as effective at repelling bacteria and fungus.

[morpheus]

when i said thrive i just meant the adults were healthy and lived long lives. i was not really making a comparison to breeding, but it is a good discussion. i have not tried to breed any cichlids since i moved here, but did so before where the water is far softer and a neutral pH out of the tap. all three of the previous posts made good points in that these fish have never been in their natural soft water low pH setting, so they adapted to higher pH and harder waters. breeding yes could be more difficult, but i was just pointing out that most cichlids species still do fine in higher pH environments. a pH of 7.6 wouldnt kill the fish by any means.

[troy tucker]

African cichlids like high PH. You should test for nitrates and nitrites. As well as ammonia.

[Lairdc76]

There are high range pH test kits that start at 7.4 and go upward. you can find them at any aquarium department in petsmart, petco, specialty shops, etc. the pH you have is fine for africans. many species of cichlids, no matter what region, prefer higher pH levels. i have seen them kept in tanks at 8.2 range and they still thrive.

some test kits also come with tests for nitrites and nitrates. these two also are toxins in the water which can contribute to stress/death. it is also not a bad idea to get a water hardness test kit too which is for KH (carbonate hardness) and GH (general hardness). water hardness will determine how easily pH can swing in the tank. the harder the water, the more resistant the pH is to moving

my cichlid tank is usually around 80-82F and i only feed mine once a day (i have a 55g thats more of a cube shape with less fish than yours).

With your ammonia reading at 0ppm, you are not overcrowded in terms of bio load.

what type of 55g do you have? is it a standard longer size or a more custom shape like a cube? going with the previous poster, africans are territorial. especially during times when they are looking for spawning partners. larger groups can curb aggression, but each cichlid stakes out its own territory. when you introduce new fish after all spaces are taken up, there can be issues. also the size of the fish being introduced compared to established fish can cause smaller ones to be picked on. longer tanks give more real estate so to speak for each fish to have an area, as well as more lateral space to get away when chased. cichlids are used to environments with many hiding places in the wild (rocks, branches, etc).

most likely, the fish died from aggression. turn out any ornaments that have caves to see if any debris or the fish are in there hiding (or dead). a carcas will grow fungus within a day or two and possibly infect others in the tank. the catfish, plecos and snail will also eat a dead fish.

I have a standard 55g tank. I've posted before about issues I was having with the tank and just about everyone was saying I had too many fish in the tank. At one point I think I had 21 or so in this tank. Some guy at Fish Gallery told be I could have that many, not sure why he told me that either. So now I'm down to 16 in the tank and they all seem to get along right now. I was thinking about trying to find a 75 gallon tank and move all them over to that tank. Maybe a little more room will be better for them?

Thanks Chris....

[mnemenoi]

There are numerous different trains of thought concerning Malawi's especially that do not seem to drift down into the other rift lake cichlids. Tanganyikans are especially sensitive to water parameters and Victorians are mostly endangered or extinct in the wild and are watched more cautiously are my ideas as to why. Malawi's can tolerate some fairly deplorable conditions and they cross breed very easily, resulting in mutants that have no real identity or (minimal) resale value. One tactic that has proven somewhat successful is overstocking them to disperse aggression. When overstocked, no dominant male can ever 'rule the tank', so even though you'll notice some random aggression it simmers down quickly as all fish never establish strong territories. Many also advocate male only tanks, thus allowing numerous colorful males that would crossbreed if allowed, to live in partial harmony with others though overstocking is also a common practice in those situations as well. The rare times I see them given the space they need is mostly accidental (they did not introduce enough similarly sized fish and deaths resulted) or breeding, in which a species is isolated and given room to breed true. I myself love seeing well done Malawi setups, but they are certainly not the norm. I would guess this is where the employee in questions logic emerged from. Glad to see you doing the right thing and looking forward to seeing what happens as the tanks become far more what your vision was. There are some very cool examples of the Malawi biotope in the AGA Biotope subdivision should you like some inspiration. Here is a link to the years competition, just select a year, View Entries pull down to Biotope Aquascape. Many of these do not actually have plants and the scapes are wonderful to browse.

[morpheus]

the more fish you pack into a tank, the more often you need to do water changes. It all depends on the type of filtration you have and how often/what percentage you do water changes. you can never go wrong with more room for fish, its just whatever you have room for in your home and what you can afford. testing the water regularly for the above parameters (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH/GH) and monitoring how quickly the levels rise will tell you when its needed.

if the level of toxins continue to rise quickly after water changes, you know the bio-load is high in the tank. in an established tank...ammonia, nitrite and nitrate should be zero or close to it. if you have live plants they will absorb nitrates, but africans normally tear apart live plants in my opinion. the KH/GH will keep your pH more stable, and africans can adapt to high or low hardness.

If you had 21 africans in a 55 gallon, that is a large amount if they are full grown. it can be done with the right setup, but if water changes are not frequent enough, your ammonia, nitrites and nitrates will spike causing stress. Having 16 is pressing the limits, but is more manageable. i personally would not add more fish into that tank size.

right now in my 55 gal i have 10 fish total (varying from 4 inches up to 8 inches). i have a hang on back whisper 60 as my filtration. i could do a lot better with my filter. i do a 50% change every 10 days or so (gravel vac or just water depending on the chemistry) and that keeps my chemistry at a good balance.

your tank will be different, so you just need to map out how often to do water changes.

[morpheus]

...Tanganyikans are especially sensitive to water parameters and Victorians are mostly endangered or extinct in the wild and are watched more cautiously are my ideas as to why. Malawi's can tolerate some fairly deplorable conditions...

also definitely agree with this portion. different types of cichlids can deal with declining conditions better than others. i have seen tanks that took days of waters changes to stabilize the toxin levels, but the fish still appeared to be "acting normally".

the rest of his post also has good information for different cichlid tanks